Why Guys Catcall

So… A few hours ago @ Brian‘s party, The Kid made a new friend… Well… Until she actually reads my blog, hahaha πŸ˜€ Her name is Jess, and she blogs @ Jess and Josh Talk About Stuff.

So, naturally, this morning, the mandatory e-Stalking session was in order. πŸ˜€

I immediately landed on a series of posts entitled “The Great Catcalling Experiment”, and of course, The Kid was like awwwwwww here we GO!!! πŸ˜€

I thought I’d comment on some excerpts from Jess’ series…..

“Jezebel just posted an article analyzing CNN’s lovely story entitled, “Catcalls – Creepy or Complimentary?” Hey, CNN – allow me to answer that question for you, since as a PYT living in New York, I am constantly the victim of bordering-on-sexual-harassment-catcalls.”

I’ll assume that PYT stands for “Pretty, Young Thing”, derived from Michael Jackson’s record. If it’s something else, someone let me know! πŸ˜€

“Not only is it creepy, but it’s objectifying and downright annoying. I have never once stopped in my tracks, looked at my perp in the eye, sincerely thanked him and then handed him my number.”

“So why do men continue to catcall?”

Personally, I don’t indulge… but I see why a lot of guys do it. We’ll get to that later. πŸ™‚

I don’t bother with catcalling because a) it doesn’t work, and b) it totally goes against my personal style. If you tell a chick how fine she is the first time you ever lay eyes on her walking down the street, you already gave your entire game away. You don’t have any leverage, because she knows you’re sweating her. It’s a Cro-Mag move, and really base… simplistic. If that’s how you want to present yourself to a chick you’re tryinna kick it to, be my guest. πŸ˜€

Actually, I shouldn’t say it DOESN’T work… It’s actually a low-percentage play. IF the chick likes you, AND she doesn’t penalize you for your primitive tactics, you can get on. Quick & Dirty. Done Deal. If she doesn’t like you, no dice. If she liked you until you opened your mouth, no dice. What’s immediately obvious, however, is that if she likes you already, your comment to her actually did you no good. You didn’t GAIN anything by catcalling her (catcalling AT her?), and could have still pulled the digits if you hadn’t said anything at all… OR if you had said something decent or respectful, such as “hello”.

“Is it in their genes? Is it a cultural thing, since many of the men who vocalize appreciation for my “beauty” tend to be Hispanic and African American? (Though, yeah, some are white – and many of them are asshole Wall Street guys).”

hehehe This is a good question. Having met Jess in person, her results are going to be skewed because of her body type. In General, hispanic and black guys are going to be more physically attracted to her and white guys are going to be less physically attracted to her.

Having said that, I think that guys, black, white or otherwise will be more apt to catcall if they’ve experienced success with that tactic in the past, so I think it’s less “cultural” and more “situational”. Also, a lot of the white guys in NYC are imports. They’re not FROM NYC. They’re not used to walking past 8 or 9 girls on one block that they’d hook up with, so they never developed any street game. Some guys don’t even feel like talking to chicks in the street is appropriate at all. πŸ˜€

“It’s a feminist issue, but it’s also a human issue. Why have so many women simply accepted this kind of harassment as part of the female job description?”

Partially, because women can’t win this situation. If you keep walking, he “wins”, or at least, he didn’t lose anything, because you would have kept walking anyway if he hadn’t tried to “throw his hat in the ring” (unless you were into him until he catcalled, as I explained earlier). If you stop and talk to him, he wins. That’s what he wanted. Even if you react negatively towards him, he’s still getting your time and attention and he doesn’t care what you think anyway, so all you’re doing by talking to him is giving him a chance to try to get on.

Of course, I’m talking about non-workplace situations.

“It doesn’t matter what I’m wearing, either. I’ve been hit on on my way home from the gym, red-faced, pony-tailed, wearing sweats and coated in a sheet of sweat (er, excuse me – glistening).”

Already covered => “Does it matter what women think?”. Basically, what you think of YOUR looks / attire has ZERO bearing on HIS interest in you. Also, your lack of indication that you want him (or anyone) to talk to you is completely irrelevant.

The entire point is Desire Fulfillment. His.


“This initial graph shows that the majority of men actually did want to pursue something with me beyond catcalling, which was… unexpected, especially considering it’s strange that they would use such a relatively offensive method of catching my attention if they actually wanted to go on a date with me. Or maybe they were caught off guard since I’m sure they never get a positive response from the women they verbally harass. Upon approaching them, they appeared rather flustered but still semi-confident. I gave them each fake phone numbers. Sorry, boys.”

This is why I mentioned success rates and “street game” earlier. Catcalling isn’t a “Never” proposition… it’s only “Low Percentage”. You can definitely get on with catcalling, and there are guys that do it all the time, I’m sure. My point earlier was that they don’t actually NEED to catcall, because the only reason they’d be successful is if the chick was already attracted to them.

The fact remains that there are gals that respond to catcalling AND will give it up relatively quickly thereafter…. um…. actually, that’s probably one of the benefits, hahaha. If you can pick her up by yelling at her in the street, she should be an easy lay. It’s kind of like a poor way to weed out chicks that you might have to put in some work to get. πŸ™‚

“Woo! I don’t know if it’s the impending heatwave or the fact that I’m wearing a belted t-shirt as a dress, but every construction worker and his brother-in-law wanted to bang this hot mami this morning. Or, so they verbalized.”

“An anonymous commenter brought up the excellent point that just because the men positively embrace my response to their jeers, it does not mean they want to date me. Instead, it probably means they just want to fuck me.”

The difference being……..?

“So now we will operate under the premise that when they ask for my phone number they are simply trying to get in my pants.”

ummm….. Of Course. That’s all that’s going on. Guys are taking shots in the dark at getting laid.

There’s an endless supply of chicks in this town. By one report, there are 210,820 excess single women in NYC. This means that when it comes to kicking game, women are completely expendable. You can ruin a rap to 50 chicks every single day and NEVER run out of chicks to meet in this town that have never seen you before in their lives. I met Jess approximately 12 hours ago, read her blog this morning and blogged about it this afternoon. I met chicks the day before yesterday, and I’m going to meet more today. πŸ˜€

The point is that catcalling is a last ditch effort, even if a lot of guys use it as their first attempt at kicking it to a chick. It’s low percentage, but it doesn’t matter if you burn that bridge. There are another couple of hundred thousand chicks to try to get on with before the end of the construction day.

“… If any fellow catcallers and readers of Jess and Josh want to take on this task and report back, we would be very grateful. Otherwise, I guess we’ll all have to keep on wondering… why men do the things they do zomg lolz.”

I think by now, I’ve gone over the basic points. When it comes to trying to get laid in a city with an endless supply of females, taking shots in the dark is a low-percentage play that MIGHT score you a chick that will give it up quick. Even if she hates you after the fact, it’s irrelevant, because there are another 210,000 of her that you haven’t offended yet. On top of that, there are women that will take ANY showing of attention from a guy as a compliment, due to an extreme lack of self-esteem. With so many extra females, every so often, you’re bound to run into one that’s tired of not getting some herself, and is susceptible to hooking up with some guy that catcalled her for her own personal pleasure.

As far as “dating”… Dating is just setting up opportunities to get laid, so we end up back at the nitty-gritty. He doesn’t care what you say. He doesn’t care what you think. He DOES care what you look like and that he’s physically turned on by you, and decides to utilize his primitive skillz to try to pick up women on the fly.

It doesn’t matter that you’re dressed in sweats and a hoodie. It doesn’t matter that you didn’t look at him or say anything to him to indicate that you wanted to be rapped to……

Having said all that… πŸ˜€

I was chatting with Lux earlier, and her take is that catcalling isn’t really about sex… it’s about power.

That’s a discussion for another day. All I can express is the point of view of someone that knows professional catcallers and has the opportunity to catcall chicks every day. I opt out, because it’s low-percentage as well as low-brow. Catcalling usually indicates either desperation or disrespect. Neither one is good. πŸ˜€

There are classier ways to throw your hat in the ring when you’re crossing a woman’s path that you’ll never see again in this city of millions.

Step your games up, Playboys! πŸ˜€

Individual links:
Boys Will Be Boys, and So Their Balls May Suffer the Conseq…
The Great Catcalling Experiment: Day One
The Great Catcalling Experiment: Day Two
The Great Catcalling Experiment: Day Three, Uptown Version

DatingGenius
 
 

40 thoughts on “Why Guys Catcall”

  1. It’s the equivalent of spam. For every 10,000 Viagra e-mails, I suppose one results in a conversion, but e-mails are cheap. I wonder when and why did people stop catcalling ages ago, and why did it start up again in recent decades?

  2. yes i agree that cat calling is an OPT OUT sport BUT, certain situations are made for catcalling! uhm, the 116th street festival around our way! 2 years running i had the SAME cat call and it served to eliminate those that weren’t game THAT VERY NIGHT! my line (2 years running) was simple (as a girl approaches) “damn, anyone that says the good lord dont smoke is crazy.You gotta be high to give one girl all that” and as she walked away exposing her backside to my sight “and apparently he drinks too!” LMAO
    the ones who where offended were offered a quick apology and the ones who turned and smiled (even if briefly) were then entertained with the gift of gab. Firts thing was first though, I ALWAYS SAID “SORRY ABOUT THAT BUT I WNATED YOU TO REMEMBER ME INSTEAD OF ALL THESE CLOWNS HERE”! So, yeah i do agree that we should all be above catcalling some situations are just begging for it!! lol

  3. @Frank: hahaha Yeah, Yeah.. We were all younger… yesterday. πŸ˜€

    However, your point is MY point. You were saying what you were saying in hopes of being entertaining, and your demeanor as well as your vocal inflection were delivered in that “I’m trying to entertain you” fashion.

    That’s completely different from dudes that are just being jerks or kicking game to chicks they know damned well they have ZERO chance with. There’s a line between attempting to make friends with a chick and just outright being RUDE and OBNOXIOUS…

    Speaking of which… “You can’t tell me nuthin'” about the festival back in the day!!!

    YA HEARD??? πŸ˜€

  4. I knew you would understand the situational cat calling as it were in regards to the Festival!!
    and trust, that “the lord must be high” line worked!!! lol

  5. A friend & i have been talking about a reverse-gender catcall, where we chicks would camp out & say harassing things to passing males. In theory guys would understand what it’s like to be randomly objectified, but in practice we’d probably be inundated with phone numbers. πŸ™‚

    1. HAH! πŸ˜€ That’s not going to work AT. ALL! πŸ˜€

      All you’d get from that is questions from the guys as far as which one of y’all they get to hook up with FIRST! πŸ˜€

      It’s like if the chicks are attractive, guys are going to be with it and if the chicks are unattractive, guys are going to ignore it. No lessons will be learned, whatsoever… Other than what street they need to walk down if they want chicks to kick it to them.

  6. The real question is: “Why don’t men care about how their catcalls make women feel?”

    Catcalling IS about power. Men are still raised to feel a certain entitlement to women. How would those same men feel if they got “complimented” by hoards of gay guys as THEY walked down the street? Or touched or grabbed or worse?

    But of course they don’t have to deal with that because gay men “know better.” It’s not OK to infringe on the personal space of straight men, but fine to do it to women, or gays, or bisexuals.

    Catcalling won’t change until the power dynamic changes, and it’s going to take awhile.

    1. That’s actually a really good question, Liz. It deserves its own post, which, hopefully, I’ll write tomorrow.

      The short version is that catcalling is a means to an end. You could just as easily ask how come men don’t care about shooting deer when they go hunting. It’s either because it’s sport to them or they feel like eating.

      Same thing with kickin’ game to women. It’s either sport or the guy’s actually trying to get laid.. or both.

      Agreed, that sometimes, it’s just a dude being a jerk because he knows she’s not going to do anything about it.

      The way The Game is set up, guys have to be the aggressors, or else nothing gets done. We have to chase the women. We have to talk the women into whatever we want them to do. We have to wine & dine the women. We have to bend over backwards to do what they want, or at least lie to them and pretend that we’re doing what they want in order for them to keep doing the right thing.

      A lot of what’s perceived by women as a guy being obnoxious is just him doing whatever he’s always done to get laid in the past. It works or it doesn’t. He gets your number or he doesn’t. He gets a date or he doesn’t. Usually, you either get ignored or you get to meet a new chick and see if you can get on. If we don’t say anything at all, we don’t meet that chick anyway. She keeps walking down the block or riding the subway or whatever she was doing when we saw her and our lives aren’t improved at all, other than getting to watch her walk away while we’re wondering “Do Fries Go With That SHAKE??? :O”.

      Even in the hypothetical situations you bring up, where there were actual negative consequences to hetero “harassment” (sometimes it definitely is, and sometimes it isn’t and the chick’s just overreacting), guys are built to deal with disrespect. If we don’t like something, you’re going to hear about it.. at the very least.

      And this doesn’t just go for dudes. Busted chicks fall into this category as well. That’s one of the benefits of having to do everything in dating. When we don’t feel like kicking it to a chick because she doesn’t turn us on, we don’t have to shoo her away. She never approaches, because that’s not her station in life.

      It would be very annoying if busted chicks tried to talk to me everywhere I went. I probably wouldn’t go anywhere at all! πŸ˜€ haha BLECH!

      So, while we can definitely understand how women feel about it, it’s just part of The Game. Dudes aren’t going to stop hunting deer during deer season. Dudes aren’t going to stop trying to get laid when they see a chick that turns them on. There’s a reason why prostitution and strip clubs will never go out of style.

      In a perfect world, guys would always be respectful as they attempted to hook up with chicks. In a perfect world, guys wouldn’t feel like bullying chicks and taking verbal (and sometimes, physical) advantage of them by being jerks. This isn’t a perfect world.

      1. It’s the downside of the privileged position women occupy. The desired. The valued. Men have no street value, their bodies are not desired, in fact their nudity is considered visual assault. Catcalling may be away for the oppressed reclaim power and agency which the mating game forbids them.

  7. This isn’t a perfect world, no. But it’s a world in which women increasingly have a bigger piece of the pie, in terms of public and financial power and when it comes down to it, most of us don’t like this sort of stuff. And as we get more power we will speak up more about street harassment. Nobody is “built” to deal with disrespect, but women have been socialized to shut up and deal with “busted” a-holes treating them like prey out on the street because it was a man’s world and public spaces were in effect male spaces.

    But increasingly that’s not the case.

    I don’t care what goes through a man’s head before he harasses a women. Why should what a man wants trump what a woman wants? I really don’t care what random men on the street want or what they think of me. Look a little fine. Say hello, fine.

    I know what I like and I let those guys know I’m interested, and I like to do the approaching. From your description of the dating game, I think you are stuck in some pretty old-fashioned “rules” of how men and women should act. Which I think is part of the problem with a lot of guys.

    Also, why don’t more men respect themselves? If you’re basically having to beg for sex on the street, how much respect can you have for yourself I want to ask those guys? Why do you have such a limited social life that that’s your only option? Charles does make a good point about men who feel undesired basically lashing out on women. Why? Why are their so many guys who don’t seem to have much value for themselves? A ho is a ho is ho, you know? Whether it’s got a penis or a vagina. Why are there so many men who really seem to have no social intelligence or who just don’t care? I worry about men like that, and often feel pity for them, I really do. They deserve better.

    And for my ending chapter πŸ˜‰ one of the best essays I’ve ever read about catcalling can still be found on The Frisky’s Website. The author, a man of color, compares the words and intention of street harassment directed at women to racial epithets once used to keep minorities in their place. I think it’s an apt and interesting comparison. I grew up in the South and still remember redneck white dudes showing each other how tough they were by humiliating Black people on the street through use of words like “n#gger,” etc. You know, just for fun. cause that’s what white dudes did in the South. When they were just doing what white dudes did in an “imperfect” world.

    http://www.thefrisky.com/post/246-mind-of-man-in-defense-of-catcalls/

    1. Hey Liz. πŸ™‚

      First of all.. To be clear.. My response is certainly not “Live with it. \o/”. I don’t catcall, personally, because it’s not effective. I’ve never gotten a rap from whistling at some chick or making animal noises or directly propositioning her as she passed me on a city street, thinking of something entirely different that had nothing to do with me. I’m not defending catcalling. I’m just explaining it to you from my POV. More of an explanation is in “Privilege of Desirability”, which I just wrote this morning.

      I agree that women are gaining financial power, etc. That doesn’t change the game. Guys are never going to NOT want to get laid. Period. It’s not going to happen. It’s the reason why most of us were even born.. because some guy wanted to hook up with some chick, and in what I would assume to be a high percentage of the situations, she wanted to hook up with him also, whether the kid was an accident or not.

      “Street Harassment” should definitely be talked about and exposed, which is what they’re doing over at ihollaback.org. I think people that act like jerks should get what they have coming to them. However, I disagree that every guy that tries to bag a chick in the street qualifies as lecherous and a harasser.

      Why should what a man wants trump what a woman wants?

      It shouldn’t, and it doesn’t. What I’m saying is that each individual, male or female, has things that are important to them and things that are not important. For a lot of guys, getting laid is more important than how you feel about it, is all I’m saying.

      I’m not stuck in any “rules” about dating. πŸ™‚ Also, I’m not talking about myself. I have women kick it to me all the time. That’s not an issue. I’m trying to explain to you that the vast majority of guys come to the table as underdogs in the dating game. Every guy’s offering the same gal what he’s offering her, and more. I guarantee you it’s nowhere NEAR 50% as far as who initiates sex. First of all, women are scared to be called whores. Just because of that double-standard stigma, lots of women are going to STFU when they really want to jump a brotha’z bones, right now.

      If you’re basically having to beg for sex on the street, how much respect can you have for yourself I want to ask those guys? Why do you have such a limited social life that that’s your only option?

      That’s part of the problem. You have a lot of guys that don’t feel valued at all. You have a lot of guys with low self-esteem. I was at a party the other day, talking with this guy about gimmicks for getting laid, like cars, being a musician, poetry… He goes “I would love for a girl to just want to hook up with me for no reason, other than she’s attracted to me”.

      See what I mean? A lot of guys go through their entire lives without chicks kickin’ it to them OR making it easy for them to get on when he kicks it to her. A lot of guys feel that without the gimmicks, they’d never get laid in their entire lives. A lot of those guys are right.

      As long as a woman looks semi-decent, she’s going to have SOME guy trying to screw her. It doesn’t work like that in reverse. Guys have to put in WORK on women, even when it’s obvious that she wants to hook up already. One thing that’s interesting when I run into guys IRL that also know me from online is that a lot of them comment on how many attractive women I know. In fact, they have no idea, because many of the women that I’m closest to don’t post media to the internet at all.

      What’s interesting about it is that it’s just a fact of my life that I know myriad women and don’t come anywhere near to having time to spend with all of them. I get props just for KNOWING a lot of women because it’s honestly tough out there for guys if they’re not playing the Commitment Game. Having, as you say, a “limited social life” is a fact of existence for a lot of guys, and there are a lot of guys that don’t like that (I know *I* wouldn’t), and have a negative reaction to their circumstances, which often manifests itself as caustic statements they make to random women that they encounter.

      As much as guys don’t like to beg for sex on the street, they hate not getting laid at all even worse. Trust & Believe.

      A ho is a ho is ho, you know? Whether it’s got a penis or a vagina. Why are there so many men who really seem to have no social intelligence or who just don’t care? I worry about men like that, and often feel pity for them, I really do. They deserve better.

      In fact, the double standard indicates that that’s nowhere near the case. If a guy says he hooked up with 20 chicks last year, there will be a different reaction to him than a gal that says she hooked up with 20 guys last year. Again.. I’m not saying “live with it”, just stating facts. Women would like to believe that guys that hook up a lot are considered whores instead of heroes, but it’s just not true and never will be.

      “Social Intelligence” will not get a guy laid. In fact, dating requires on-the-job training. If you don’t have any girls, you don’t get used to dealing with girls and you never get good at it. Guys will remain without social intelligence for their entire dating careers. Lots of guys that are currently married don’t have any social intelligence when it comes to women. They were either lucky, sincere, or knew the correct hoops to jump through to pull one girl and retire.

      As far as your “whites in the South” point, you’re absolutely right as it pertains to bums that talk to chicks they know they can’t pull. You’re not correct when it comes to guys that actually might get the rap if the girl likes him.

      If he doesn’t kick game, someone else will.. On her job, at the supermarket, at the club, at her girlfriend’s birthday party, at the bowling alley.. SOMEWHERE! πŸ˜€ .. Somebody’s going to get that, so dude may as well throw in his two cents because you have to be in it to win it.

      The reason I disagree with your analogy in the latter case is that the white guys were ONLY talking to the black guys in an attempt to demean them. Lots of times, when guys talk to women in the street and it’s labeled “Street Harassment”, the guy’s really sincere and really would like to take her out and get to know her and see if he can get on. He’s not just running his mouth because he figures she’s not going to do anything about it.

      Women often miss out on this aspect of the situation because when y’all aren’t thinking about hooking up with us, you can’t fathom that we would want to have sex with you anyway. That’s part of the “Privilege of Desirability”.. If I don’t want it, it doesn’t exist.

      This is why a lot of women end up in messed-up situations, because they told some dude they weren’t interested in him and he pretended to let it go when he really never did.

      1. Well I think what we’re both hitting on, or I know I am, is that there has got to be a fundamental shift in how men and women relate to each other if the worst types of street harassment are going to fade.

        There ARE double standards, but they are changing and they are only going to continue to change if we begin trying to look at each other as humans beings, and not as just part of a “game.”

        Everybody likes to screw. I had a great time flying my freak flag and banging any and everything I wanted when I was single, though thanks to those double standards you speak of, I don’t brag about all my conquests. (Side note: most women know to shut up about that. WE are the biggest studs, but y’all can’t deal with that, so yeah, just go ahead and believe we’ve only been with 3 people before you;)

        Also, when guys like you, I looked at some of your other posts, are telling women to be passive and not be “slutty” by giving guys her number, you’re making it harder for guys. Boys can’t have it both ways. If you want women to be easier to approach, you have to give up some of that old-fashioned “men are always the aggressors CRAP” that is basically like saying “please ladies let us feel like we’re always the ones in control,” which is of course how double standards are born in the first place.

        What it comes down to is that we have to start looking at each as people, not just pieces of a game, as Oprah-stupid as that sounds. Because it’s all a vicious cycle otherwise. Women put up the bitch walls because they get bothered all the time, then men get more desperate and angry and bother women more. We need to have more compassion for each other. If I can learn to have actual compassion the desperation and loneliness that would drive an otherwise normal man to say horrible things to me on the street, then men can be a little more empathetic about how their sex-finding behavior makes other people feel.

        Just because you want to get laid, or you’re mad that you’re not getting laid, doesn’t make it OK to basically bully another person on the street, and I’m talking about the worst types of catcalls. It’s cowardly. I believe that men are better than that.

        Because that’s when it’s like what a man wants trumps what a women wants, at least from the female POV. It’s like he’s thinking “I wants to put his dick in something and well if she’s not game, on to the next.” He doesn’t even stop and think about the HUMAN BEING that he just said all that stuff too. That she’s not ONLY in the world to be a potential source for his personal sperm release. What bothers me is it seems like so many men only know how to relate to women as potential dick holes. Men are visual, they think about having sex, but even if you see a women that you think “I’d bang that in a minute,” that’s not the only thing about her. There’s a human being connected to the vagina.

        By the same token women could be more understanding that all the socially inept guys who don’t know a better way to act around women are not just garbage to be laughed at, but lonely human beings that need help in a lot more ways than getting laid.

        Men are more than banks. You’re more than corporate drones. You’re more than a couple of thrusts. Your human beings, just like us, but the world is changing and to get the full human relationships that we all deserve, some of y’all are gonna have to change your game.

        In the mean time this is a good discussion to have, so thanks for providing a forum for it.

        1. You’re welcome, Liz.

          I agree with what you’re saying, philosophically and hypothetically, however there just isn’t *ANY* incentive for guys to not attempt to bag chicks they want to hook up with.

          Everything that you’re talking about has benefits for women and not for men, similar to how in your example about whites in the South, desegregation had benefits for blacks instead of whites.

          Let’s say, for example, that all guys decided that kickin’ game to random chicks in the street (or wherever) wasn’t the move anymore. All that does is restrict the guys’ opportunities. There’s no “If you give us this, we’ll give you that”. There’s nothing that replaces the value of potentially turning the next corner and meeting a gal that you’re going to go out with this weekend.

          I’m sure you would say that guys would feel better about themselves and the world would be a better place, la la la, but (and, again, I don’t condone jerk-type behavior or dudes that know they don’t have a chance with some chick still bothering her) that’s not worth anything to guys, so some kind of compromise or trade-off would have to be offered in order for that concept to become even remotely feasible.

          Let’s say you’re right, and men are only 50% of the aggressors in rap situations, leaving the other 50% to women to see a guy they like, approach him, kick game and come away with contact information for him so they can see him again in the near future. That would make the advice for guys the same as the advice for women = Look Good and Go Outside.

          It also would mean the women would be buying guys drinks at the bar/club, trying to bribe the guys to sit and chat with them. It would also mean that women would be cool with kickin’ it with guys that were stupid, had zero common sense and no earning potential, because he looked good and that was the only reason she was kickin’ it to him in the first place.

          As far as women giving out numbers, my position is that so long as you’re perceived as doing it from your own personal power, that’s really the best situation you could ask for. It’s not going to guarantee that the dude doesn’t consider you a ho for trying to hook up with him ASAP, but at least he knows you came and put it on him instead of him thinking that he said some spiffy stuff that dropped your drawers.

          You’re right that what a guy wants to do doesn’t make anything “ok”. However, this is real life. Nothing has to be “ok”. That’s a fairy tale. People run around all day, talkin’ ’bout “Don’t Judge Me! :O” and they think that because people don’t say anything that they’re not a) judging them and b) telling all their friends what they think about that person. The only person that’s not hearing the truth is the subject of the opinion.

          Similarly, whether it’s “ok” or not, dudes aren’t going to stop trying to get laid, is my point. How they do it may or may not evolve. The function itself remains the same. That’s how the world got populated and remains populated.

          I agree with you that the guys that do that don’t “stop and think about the human being they said that to”, because it doesn’t matter. Here in NYC, you barely have time to finish checking out one chick before the next one’s heading down the block. If you’re in midtown, you may as well not even bother. There are too many women to focus on one of them for more than a couple of seconds.

          This environment isn’t conducive to “Think about the humans!”. It’s like food to rich people. It doesn’t matter how much food they throw out or give away because they’ll just buy more later or tomorrow. Poor people don’t have that luxury, so they’re the ones that have to think about leftovers and how they’re going to eat tomorrow.

          Having said that, I’m going to start asking guys what they think about this. I know that I have never, EVAR in life heard a guy say he felt poorly about trying to get laid… I mean, other than dudes that kicked it to some busted chick because of beer goggles and now they feel embarrassed that their boys saw them drooling over her. πŸ˜€

  8. I’ll hit some of your points head on….

    * But don’t you think creating public spaces that EVERYONE feels safe in benefits men as well as women? Desegregation definitely benefitted whites. No one benefits when a huge segment of your population feels marginalized and disrespected.

    * I still think the street is a bad place to hit on people. There’s other places to do it for guys who are worth anything. We might just disagree on this.

    * Actually there’s a reason people can’t say the “n-word” anymore without losing their career and life. Real life is never a fairy tale. but as people who have been oppressed financially and otherwise get more power they get more say in what goes on the public world. The dynamic WILL change. Dialogues like this wouldn’t have even happened 10 years ago. Catcalling, and I am NOT talking about the gentlemanly “Hi, you look nice today,” just happened. Women dealt with it. Now that we have more power, we’re like wait, WTF? Did you just talk about my ass and call me a bitch? Let’s change the dynamic homie.

    * If you do ask guys how they make women feel when they catcall they likely WILL NOT CARE. That, in a nutshell is really what makes women angry. It’s what would make anyone angry.

    More than the sexual comments, or the invasion of personal space, it’s that how WE feel DOES NOT MATTER. It’s like men are still raised to view women as little more than potential dick-holes. Pieces of a “game.” And I’m purposely being crass because that’s what it feels like from the female POV. If a guy would potentially think I’m a ho cause I gave him my number in a club why wouldn’t I think a guy’s a desperate ho when he’s dogging me in a public place like he’d fuck me or any other women in an alley? And you talk about people not caring about men getting with whomever, well some people do care, namely WOMEN.

    But, what women THINK or WANT has not been a part of the “game” discussion for 100s, even 1,000s of years. And we could get into the whole devaluation of women and commodification of sex stemming from the agricultural revolution 10,000 years ago, and change over from prehistoric egalitarian hunter-gatherer societies but let’s not. Though check out this book on the subject: http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Dawn-Prehistoric-Origins-Sexuality/dp/0061707805

    BUT AGAIN. GUYS DON’T CARE HOW THEY MAKE WOMEN FEEL ON THE STREET. It’s not that they’re even always trying to mean, they JUST DON”T CARE. Which is worse, don’t you see. THAT IS AN ULTIMATE EXPRESSION OF MALE POWER, which is a fancy-ass way of saying even the lowest guys don’t really have to think about how their words affect any woman, because their personal desire to be laid is more important. Women on the other hand, in spite of or perhaps BECAUSE of our enormous sexual power, have been taught to over-worry about what others think, to be a “good” girl, not be a ho, etc. Though some of us, like moi, see this for the controlling double standard it is and do what we want anyway.

    I have no problem with guys wanting to get laid. I have every problem with men not giving a shit about how the tactics they employ to get some vagina, make women who happen to have vaginas feel about their safety, their dignity, etc. I wonder if guys ever feel bad about THAT. Sadly I think few of them could give a shit.

    I agree big cities dehumanize people just by sheer numbers, but I have lived in several big cities. Social conditioning also controls what people think is appropriate. I’ve lived in cities where catcalling was worse than NYC, and in cities where it was virtually nonexistent compared to NYC.

    It’s been my personal experience that societies that are actually more sexually open (i.e. Northern Europe) and where men and women are socialized to see each other more as people first, and see sex not as a domination game but a mature mutual exchange, that guys would approach a woman more as a person first. A person they might want to have sex with, but a person first, a unique individual that you have to talk TO, not AT. Also since these societies often do a better job with socializing their males and there aren’t as many “expendable” people in general, I found the men to be much better adjusted socially and less desperate. And NOTHING is less attractive than a desperate man. NOTHING.

    Just some observations homie.

    1. I think that creating public spaces that everyone feels safe in benefits men as well as women. However.. Men already feel safe. I’m not saying that to be funny. No guy is concerned that he’s going to walk past a construction site full of females and they’re going to make sexual comments towards him.

      Similarly, whites were already “desegregated” before desegregation. The benefit whites received from desegregation was the opportunity to interact with blacks who were worth meeting, but whom had previously been prohibited from interacting with them. Other than that, everything was regular.

      So, if this shift in society occurs, guys will remain un-harassed, like we already are = The benefit is for women, not men.

      I will agree to disagree with you about street raps. Then again, I live in NYC, where you’re not likely to ever see a chick again, even if you go to the same subway platform at the same time every morning. If you’re interested, you either let her know, or count her as one of “the ones who got away”.

      I don’t see anything wrong with guys kickin’ it to girls in the street. Girls don’t see anything wrong with it either, so long as they’re sweating the guy. If they want you, you can approach them ANYWHERE, and they’ll be grateful, appreciative & hopeful. If they don’t want you, you’re going to get shut down, snarled at and called a creep 10 times out of 10.

      In fact, Real Life is OFTEN a fairy tale. The problem occurs when someone wakes up to what was really happening in their so-called “relationship”. There are lots of guys and gals that aren’t in the relationship they believe they’re in.

      You’re right. This dialogue wouldn’t have occurred 10 years ago. I absolutely agree. The dynamic is definitely changing for some people, but it’s remaining the same for others. The people that refuse to see that the other team still has a lot of people on it are the people that walk themselves into traps because they can’t fathom what the other person is thinking or doing.

      I also agree that guys wouldn’t care if I asked them. I see your point about how the disrespect is more disheartening than the actual comments. The only way to change that is through education.

      I agree that some women care about guys “getting around”. In fact, women SHOULD care, with the proliferation of STDs at this point in time. Unfortunately, which, of course, is the point of our discussion here, if men don’t care what women think to begin with… \o/

      I agree that men not caring presents more of a problem for women than men who are deliberately being jerks. I believe the mentality stems from the concept that the only goal in talking to her in the first place was having sex with her. In that case, as soon as she indicates that she’s not going to hook up with you, she becomes irrelevant to that particular guy, which sometimes leads to all sorts of caustic & nasty behavior.

      I think it’s tougher to get someone who doesn’t care to care than it is to get someone who’s deliberately being a jerk to stop being a jerk (at least to the women he respects).

      .. which is a fancy-ass way of saying even the lowest guys don’t really have to think about how their words affect any woman, because their personal desire to be laid is more important.

      You’ve pretty much summed up the situation right thurrr.

      Women have been trained to “not be hoes” in an attempt for males to prove paternity. It’s got to be his kid because his woman wouldn’t give it up to anyone else because she’s not a whore, or else he wouldn’t have married her, is the circular logic on that one.

      Women have been systematically and effectively shamed out of living their true lives.

      That’s an interesting concept: “.. that guys would approach a woman more as a person first”. Who does that? πŸ˜€

      As I’ve said on many occasions, I have *NEVER* had a guy say to me that he’s going to try to meet a chick that he thinks is physically unattractive. I know there are male gold diggers and gigolos that will kick it to any chick with a line of credit, but I’ve never heard of a guy deliberately approaching a girl at a bar, for instance, that he didn’t want to have sex with, unless, of course, he was approaching her so he could befriend her so she might introduce him to her hawt friend.

  9. Well, maybe us girls should just try to see you boys in such one-dimensional ways.

    So, thinking like that, why have I spent my time debating with you since I’d have sex with you?

    Waste of time.

    Stupid me.

    1. That’s an interesting point… I don’t think women in general are built to see guys that way. I think this is one of the majorly lopsided aspects of The Game. Guys are ready to get down immediately, while gals think about all this extra stuff that has nothing to do with anything from the guy’s perspective.

      What I would like women to take away from posts like this is the ability to consider that a guy thinks about her in a one-dimensional way. Not that she should try to think like he does, but just RECOGNIZE how he thinks. Also.. Recognize that he doesn’t think the way you do.

      Is there overlap? Certainly. There are guys that catch feelin’s more than gals. There are gals that are just trying to find guys they like to hook up with and do their thing.

      What I’m saying is that most of the time, the problem in these relationships is that the woman is carrying on way more of a relationship to the man than he is to her. He knows to fake it so he can “go along to get along” and keep the relationship the way he wants it.

      On the specific topic of catcalling, the point is the same. While I like the idea of everyone being comfortable everywhere and everyone being respectful to everyone, that only happens when both sides see things the same way.

      Having said that.. I’m sure life is easier for women that see guys in a one-dimensional fashion.

      1. That’s just fucking wrong. Girls do think like that some times, but even when we do we understand there are certain levels of respect you adhere to.

        I actually think women should start thinking “more like guys.” I think we should be just as self-serving, etc. We should stop trying to bargain and simply say….more of us graduate from college, there are more of us in the workforce than men and if we don’t like how things are going in the world it’s going to fucking change.

        1. This entire discussion hinges upon “we understand there are certain levels of respect you adhere to”. If you believe that and the guy you’re messing with doesn’t, you lose. If a guy believes that and the girl he’s messing with doesn’t, HE loses.

          That’s why I’m saying that women need to learn to tell the difference between men that believe what they believe and men that don’t. When you feel like everyone should or will adhere to the same moral or ethical standards, you’re taking yourself out of the game and making it easier for guys to trick you by doing things you’re not looking for.

          I agree with you that women should think more carefully about who they decide to get involved with. One of the main problems is that y’all are brainwashed from birth to get married to someone. Guys are not. We can get married or not get married, it’s not going to change anything about our lives or how we perceive ourselves.

          This is why women tend to sell out for relationships. It’s more important to be IN a relationship than to be involved with the right person. If women were more comfortable with who they are, with or without a man, it would be a much stronger position to bargain from. If women believed their faces looked fine without makeup, the makeup industry would tank. If women believed they looked and felt fine being overweight, the weight loss and women’s fitness industries would tank.

          Unfortunately, “going for self” doesn’t equate to thinking like guys, because we have different internal motivations for becoming physically involved with each other. The sooner women recognize that they’re different from men, the faster they’ll build their own base of power and have more leverage in the relationship, dating and catcalling discussions.

  10. Well, maybe us girls should just try to see you boys in such one-dimensional ways.

    So, thinking like that, why have I spent my time debating with you since I’d never have sex with you?

    Waste of time.

    Stupid me.

    1. Just to make it clear. My first message in this strand contains a typo.

      I would never, ever, never have sex with you.

      Sorry for any confusion! πŸ™‚

  11. I been trying to find the time to get back in the mix with some of these postings, now seems like a good time as any…

    “Well, maybe us girls should just try to see you boys in such one-dimensional ways.

    So, thinking like that, why have I spent my time debating with you since I’d never have sex with you?”

    1)Girls already do this. If you arent interested in me you keep it moving. We dont fault you for that because thats how we are built. Ive had girls who were interested in me and barely even acknowledged their presence. Meaning…if I am in a situation or location that lent itself to hormonal conquest, if you aint doing it for me Im cant be bothered. Unless you friends with the chick we really want. Guys make better use of the environment that females. If you not interested, you not interested.

    2) the fact that you kept analyzing and expressing yourself on this point also seperates us. If a guy isnt trying to get in you pants, its a quick convo. A woman on the other hand, wants an explanation about why I act a certain way. If we worked together or had mutual friends, I might entertain this. If I stopped you in the street and you turned me down, asking me anything else is a waste of your time. Not mine cause menatlly im already on the next move.

    If girls REALLY attempted to see the world the the lightly tinted glasses we wear, there wouldnt be so many who feel like men are after just one thing. We all want sex. we all want a relationship. that doesnt mean that if im trying to bed you YOU are the one I want that LTR with.

    1. Sometimes I feel like men are just dirty opportunistic whores who have outlived their biological usefulness. I mean the alphas could be kept around for breeding and inventing things, but most of you are sort of redundant.

      I think that’s where a lot of the friction comes into play. It’s like being constantly harassed by dirty redundant whores that you would rather cut off your own clitoris with a dirty razor blade before having sex with.

      Just my opinion!

      1. Unfortunately, that way of thinking only applies to guys y’all don’t want to hook up with. A guy that you want that does the same thing will be welcomed and accommodated.

        I understand why you would see things from that perspective. It’s for the same reason that guys know that women front for no good reason at all. Y’all are concerned about a bunch of things that don’t exist. Y’all are mad at us for not being concerned about what you’re concerned about because you don’t realize that what you’re talking about isn’t worth anything to us.

        I’m not saying that to be snide. I’m hoping that women will understand that some guys think the way women want them to think, and the rest of the guys fake it. If you want to add your own flavor to the situation by calling men “dirty opportunistic whores” instead of just sticking to the facts that lots of men don’t and WON’T have anything to do with women they’re not trying to screw or already screwing, that’s fine, but it just makes YOU more upset with your life.

        My goal isn’t to make women feel upset. I want y’all to understand The Game, and then decide whether you want to play it or not.

        What you’re talking about in 2011 was written down in the 1960’s… FIFTY. YEARS. AGO! πŸ˜€ It’s called the SCUM Manifesto http://www.womynkind.org/scum.htm:

        It is now technically feasible to reproduce without the aid of males (or, for that matter, females) and to produce only females. We must begin immediately to do so. Retaining the mail has not even the dubious purpose of reproduction. The male is a biological accident: the Y (male) gene is an incomplete X (female) gene, that is, it has an incomplete set of chromosomes. In other words, the male is an incomplete female, a walking abortion, aborted at the gene stage. To be male is to be deficient, emotionally limited; maleness is a deficiency disease and males are emotional cripples.

        So.. Women have felt the way you feel for the last HALF-CENTURY and for every century before that. No Pain, No Gain, No Fame, Ain’t Nuthin’ Changed.

        1. Your reasoning does nothing but make me have less respect and desire to interact with men. I am familiar with the SCUM manifesto, but I’d say a lot of things have changed since the 60s. Yay! Y’all are whores. Dirty, dirty ho-baggity baggie bag whores. I wouldn’t let most of you touch me with a ten-foot pole. I would rather pleasure myself with a funeral vase than think about the vast majority of you in any profoundly sexual way……….

          1. That’s halfway to where you need to be.

            The other half is to learn to discriminate.

            The guys that only want you for sex, treat them exactly the way you’re saying. The rest of the guys, give them a chance at whatever type of relationship you’re trying to have.

            Chunk Down from the general to the particular. Sift through the haystack to find the needles. You’re ahead of the game, because a lot of chicks don’t even BELIEVE that guys think this way. That’s what blocks them from understanding how they got dumped so quickly when dude told her the day before (or the hour before, or before they had sex just now) that he loved her.

            You’ve got to know that there are some guys that you wouldn’t want to hook up with in order to be able to discern which ones are worth giving it up to.

            1. Well I’m in a relationship right now, but when I’m done with it I’m going to turn to women I think.

              Most women do know that men are whores if they have any sense but there’s a lot of people (male and female) who don’t have any sense, so there you go.

              1. Also I hate the term “giving it up” I mean the guy’s the one “giving it up” really, literally leaving a part of his DNA inside a condom and/or a vagina. We ladies are the ones, therefore, who “take” from you and then do the most important thing in the world, i.e. creating life and spew it from our bodies, which is one of the biggest reasons we should be, like, given BASIC RESPECT and stuff. πŸ™‚

    2. #1 Stopping random women on the street is a waste of time.

      #2 Yes, I tend to analyze issues that affect me daily in a negative way. I’m such a woman!

      #3 Be kind to helping verbs. They be your friend.

      1. I agree that stopping women on the street or catcalling them is a very low-percentage play. I don’t do it myself, unless it’s obvious that she wants to talk to me. The fact remains, however, that if a guy kicks it to 100 chicks and only bags 1, he wins. If he kicks it to none of them and bags 0, he loses.

        Analysis is necessary and fantastic, but the follow-up needs to be solution-oriented. There’s no point in getting mad about the situation. Once you recognize it, figure out what can be done to create social change, which can only be done by making guys feel like they empathize with you and feel like being more respectful to women in the street.

        Being crabby towards guys gives them even MORE incentive to not give a flying **** about your feelings, or any other woman they encounter for that matter.

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