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Why Women Have To Be Attractive And Men Don’t
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Women have to look good and men don’t. Period. If you don’t believe me, look around. This is because men and women have (for the most part) entirely different criteria for selecting someone to pair-bond with.
Men use their EYES to select women. This is why attractive women get more dates and get more drinks bought for them than unattractive women. Of course, unattractive women have more sex, for the reasons I already outlined, but that has nothing to do with relationships.
Women, in the meantime, select men by how they feel around them. This is why men don’t have to be attractive. You can be as ugly as you want to be or completely out of shape and still be nice to her and respectful and loving and caring and thoughtful and end up getting the rap to a woman over way more physically attractive guys. There are lots of Fabio-types that can’t hold a woman for ISH because their personalities just suck and they have the empathy of a plastic rock.
Of course, women want to project this quality onto men. Nope. Doesn’t work like that. Nobody cares that you’re a CEO. Nobody cares that you own stock in Google. Nobody cares that you have degrees from MIT *AND* Harvard. Nobody cares that you wrote such-and-such an app for the iPhone. Nobody cares that your startup hasn’t tanked yet. Nobody cares that you were in Wired magazine. Nobody cares that you live on Central Park South. Nobody cares that you’re a member of The Founder’s Club. The only thing that’s going to get him to walk across that room and attempt to make your acquaintance is he thinks you LOOK. GOOD.
* or.. at the particular time of this writing… he DID see you in Wired magazine and he needs to get a job from your company *
Since society has worked it out that men have to be the aggressors when it comes to starting conversations or relationships, this puts even MORE pressure on women to look good and LESS pressure on men. What’s the downside of not looking good for men? Women don’t approach you? They’re not going to approach you ANYWAY, because they’re so self-conscious about doing that because of the brainwashing they received since they were kids. Women aren’t SUPPOSED to kick it to men, so they sit there at the bar sweating you, HOPING that you’re going to come and talk to THEM.
Because of this, men and women come to the table with different power:
Men have the power to choose women.
Women have the power to reject men.
The power to choose is way stronger and more important than the power to reject. If a guy chooses a gal and she rejects him, guess what? He gets to go choose another one. Immediately. Might be her sister, might be her cousin or mother, might be her best friend. Right. Now. He gets to say the exact same stuff to them that he said to her in his efforts to bag a hawt chick. Meanwhile, what are HER options, as the rejector? Nothing. Nada. Zilch. She has to just sit there until ANOTHER guy chooses her, then go through the process of deciding whether she’s going to reject him as well and wait for the next train to come a-rollin’ through her station.
Since women aren’t choosers, but rather rejectors, they don’t get to actively define the set of suitors that step to them. All women can do is PASSIVELY define that set by making themselves MORE ATTRACTIVE. Wear better-looking clothes for your physique. Hit that gym more often. Go take those pilates classes. Stop taking haircut advice from men who aren’t attracted to women. That’s like letting someone who’s not a mechanic work on your brakes = stupid.
Don’t believe me? Try it out for yourself, ladies! :D Go to your next function bummy and see how many raps you get. See how far down on the totem pole you go as the guys that talked to you last time make their way through the better-looking women before making their way “down” to you. Maybe you can bring one of those limousine signs that says “I’m a CEO”.
If dating were baseball, guys would be the pitchers and gals would be the hitters. If we don’t throw you the ball, you can’t do JACK. Nothing. All you can do is stand there waiting for the next pitch. Also, if we decide to walk you… you get WALKED. You have to stand in the batter’s box. If we throw the ball sufficiently far away from you, you can’t hit it AT ALL. Four balls and you trot off to 1st base and there’s a new chick to pitch to. To be fair, you’d be able to veto that pitcher and get a new one, but once again, you’d have to HOPE he wants to pitch to you.
Meanwhile, guys don’t have to look like ISH because all women want is for you to be nice to them. How many HAWT chicks do you see walking around with mediocre dudes? That’s why. Then again, I’m speaking from my New York City bias, as usual, because there are so many attractive women here with NOTHING romantic going on in their lives AT ALL that they’re kind of “easy pickin’s”.
Relatively recently, somebody made up “Metrosexuals”. That doesn’t count in this discussion, because the guys don’t do that stuff to themselves to get women. They do it so they can look at THEMSELVES in the mirror and like what they’re looking at. They’d do the same thing if there were no women around at all. Also, these same Prince and Little Richard type dudes will be dropped like hot rocks if women don’t like their personalities, so dressing up isn’t helping out their raps to women AT. ALL.
So there you have it. :) Men choose women based on how they look, and women select from their pool of suitors based on personality. Other than not looking completely busted, guys have ZERO obligation to be attractive in the dating game. Meanwhile, women who refuse to maintain their attractiveness are pinning their hopes and dreams for pair-bonding on trickle-down theory.
Oh….. And if it takes him until 2:30 am to trickle-down to you, you qualify as a bootie call. Do not pass “Go”. Do not collect $200….. ummmm….. ok, at 2:30 am you MIGHT collect $200. :D
~Bill
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You forgot the funny factor. A guy can be pretty boring looking, or even strange, nerdy, or slightly gross but if he is funny? Well, that makes him like the hottest person in the room. The humor makes “strange-looking” interesting, and “nerdy” cute. It pretty much makes their odd looks more of a plus than a negative attribute.
You could even be sort of fat… But if you have a killer sense of humor (and by that I don’t mean a “everything I say is a joke and I seem like i am trying too hard” personality- BLET!) You’re like TOTALLY in! ha!
@Carrie: Absolutely. Thanks for the addition. You’re right. Humor gets guys a long way.
That still falls under the category of “a guy doesn’t have to look good”. The tools a guy gets to use to pull women are personality-based, not looks-based.
Thanks for the comment! Cheers! :D
Wow. That’s all pretty true. Dig the baseball reference.
hehe Thanks, Susan. :D *muahz*
@Carrie,
Sense of humor!? Firstly, you could be the funniest guy in the world, but if you’re playing to the wrong crowd you fall flat on your face. PLUS you look stoopid. Like if I rolled up on you, given that I’m buff as hell and exceedingly cute, ahem, throwing like Larry the Cable Guy but you REALLY wants Russell Peters then it doesn’t matter. I’ve still just thrown a strike. Or is it a ball? Anyway, you’re not connecting with my pitch. In this case. I think. Crap I just got lost in a baseball analogy…
Here’s a scenario: we meet and you think I’m really funny until, as can happen, I say something over the line (your line) in an effort to keep being your super comedian – which I am doing very smoothly and effortlessly on the outside – all part of the show. Bill, you know what I’m talking about here, when you’re running your mouth all IN the moment then your audience suddenly cools and your like WTF did I just say…
I’m just saying that even being funny with a stranger can still be pretty tough and have the wrong outcome. I bet there are plenty of funny guys who bottle it up quite a bit when they’re around women and I don’t think it affects their odds. Not me, but other guys. lol :)
Your reasoning is correct.
Evolution takes us to other places I hope.
I prefer an evolved man, otherwise I’d play the lipstick game.
@Jan: Absolutely. :) Evolution trends towards liking or even loving women based on how they carry themselves as people and the honest and genuine love they have for you. Ultimately, the win-win situation is mutual attraction and mutual respect.
I see a lot of conversations around the blogosphere wondering why there’s inequality in this area, and it’s really very simple. If you look at the number of businesses that are set up so that men can pay to have sex with women vs the number of businesses that are set up so women can pay to have sex with men, you’ll see that there’s a completely unequal emphasis on female attractiveness compared to male attractiveness.
I just find it amazing that it’s about to be 2009 AD and some women are completely confused about what the playing field really is.
@Steve: haha Definitely, man. Being that the DatingGenius live show is the same as the internet show, I’ve had my fair share of IRL situations that were going perfectly well completely tanking because of that ONNNNNEEEE joke that just didn’t sit right with a chick, haha.
Also, you’re right. It depends WHO’S telling the joke to begin with. Guys that women want can say whatever they want. Guys that women DON’T want can’t say JACK without getting the treatment.
“I just find it amazing that it’s about to be 2009 AD and some women are completely confused about what the playing field really is.”
Women know; it’s just that we forget sometimes, and sometimes, it’s that we don’t want to play love & sex as if it is a game.
The other difference is that most women view the whole thing as less ‘gamelike’ – less to do with competition, scorekeeping, and winners, and more to do with feeling good about ourselves and our place in the world.
@Jan: That’s one of the luxuries of being the passive participant in “the dating game”. Women get to NOT approach dating tactically, because all y’all have to do is show up. :)
Women get to believe that things “just happened”, when guys know all the effort they had to put into being in the right place at the right time, dressed correctly and with the right things to say in order to grab and hold her attention.
Having said that, there are lots of times that romance “just happens”, and that’s beautiful. I guess you’ve actually hit the nail on the head about women “getting it”. In order to “get it”, one has to consider scenarios that fall outside the boundaries of the fantasy one’s attempting to live into.
Unfortunately for women who don’t want to “see it all”, this blinds them to some blatantly obvious explanations about what happened in or TO their relationships.
Rock + Hard Place… Knowledge, which makes you effective and efficient in dealing with men but potentially jaded… vs “Ignorance”, which is certainly bliss but sets women up for the big fall when whatever’s REALLY going on comes to light.
@Steve,
You have some good points, but let me be more specific about my whole sense of humor thing.
When it’s put on as a show to make me think you’re cool… yeah, that’s going to get you anywhere. ESPECIALLY if it’s Larry the Cable guy.(HUAAT!) Or if you’re “that guy” that is being the “funny guy” in the group and again putting on that whole show, gross.
I guess what I should have said in my original post is that the dudes with the sense of humor that I go for are NOT the ones who don’t come up and start rattling off jokes in order to look cool and smooth. This puts you in the everyday douche category and you may as well have come up and asked me what my sign was because it’s so obviously a pick up tactic and very annoying.
Also, getting approached by SO many dudes in suits that are BUFF, and look like what my friend Greta (who’s hungry for the tradish good looking business man) would drool over, but who have bad personalities and just want to tell you how much money they make is so tired, sad and annoying. It pretty much changed me in that when I see some dude that looks DIFFERENT or NERDY, I immediately think Ooh, they are probably super funny, and THAT’S who I would wish would come talk to me.
It’s just too bad they’d have to claw their way through all the cookie cutter douches to get a word in…
oops I meant “NOT the ones who come up and start rattling off jokes in order to look cool and smooth”
And yuck, I am still grossed out that Larry the Cable guy was mentioned in the same category as Sense of Humor. That is NOT humor, that is some hick thinking he is cool… not funny.
Carrie,
I get exactly what you’re saying, you don’t want a player. Right? A guy that’s just reeling one liners off the top of his head trying to crack you up but he’s not really listening to you, he’s listening to himself. Right?
You still have to get that even good ol’ chicken chested, geeky/nerdy guy with the Buddy Holley specs is putting in an effort to present as best he can. Unless he’s hand grenading himself, but that’s a whole ‘nutha conversation about guys self destructing on a mission. Some guys just make more of an effort to prepare or get into a groove with it so it’s not so damn hard all the time OR they make contact with the aliens more frequently. Or less stressfully. Who wants to experience all the warning signs of a coronary over and over again! lol :)
Some guys get waaaay too polished I because their buddies are, I think, and some of the show is for them…
Hmmm… it may be misleading when I refer to it as a show, but I think any kind of good public speaking belongs in that category. You are projecting yourself or some aspect of yourself (look at me, I’m the geek with the laid back observational humor who likes bands only 10 other people have ever heard of and I own a cat and please don’t call me a beta male, etc.) and you really want people to dig that.
The only reasons I can think of that some nerdy guy would be relaxed around you is because he believes that you are out of his range OR below his range OR Buddy’s already getting some. In all three cases he’s not on the hunt, or prowl, or any other part of the safari. In the first two cases you would have to start the conversation ’cause you’re not on his radar and he’s looking past you or he’s too shy. Typically he should not be holding his breath. Granted, he could be totally wrong about what his range is (very likely) but that’s where his head is. I would add that I think if the rules above do not apply in some instances then that’s because you have found the Easter Egg. A Playa in Geeks Clothing. Ding, ding, ding, you win?
BTW – In this response I’m leveraging my own observations from a very long outing last Saturday night. At one bar (the last and right one) I talked to several women of various degrees of attractiveness, to me, and surprised myself by how I could go from being an easy going funny MF’r with some “average” ladies then tongue-tied with the prettiest woman I’d seen all night and then right back to being the easy going funny MF’r again. Actually I wasn’t really tongue tied so much as I ran out of thoughtful conversation starter bullets. Apparently I either picked the wrong one(s) or was supposed to do both sides of the deal. It ended with us blinking at each other then mutually separating. It was weird. Like brow furrowing weird. It was like she was waiting for something, possibly an escape hatch? lol :)
@Steve,
Very true, and don’t get me wrong, I hate hipsters too… those emo glasses, tight jeans wearin, I only like music no one else has heard of which makes me so much better than everyone jerks! They are just as annoying as the Suits, but admittedly harder to spot sometimes.
@Carrie,
Yeah, hipsters. Modern skinny jeans, making normal people ass-less since 2007 – Woohoo?
I’m not trying to pick apart what you wrote a bit back but this got me thinking:
“…when I see some dude that looks DIFFERENT or NERDY, I immediately think Ooh, they are probably super funny, and THAT’S who I would wish would come talk to me.” What’s with the wishing? If that’s the guy you want to talk to why wouldn’t you just go over and talk to him? I’m guessing ’cause it sounds pretty hard for you to do, right? Now imagine if you did that 6 or 7 times a night when you went out? Do you think it gets easier? If it feels easier over time are you now getting too polished? Which leads me to the following:
@Jan, “…more to do with feeling good about ourselves and our place in the world.” I’d like to say something ridiculous – guys do that sometimes :) – it shouldn’t be about “scorekeeping” but it is about being rewarded for our effort. Maybe that’s just different shades of gray but it also leads men to, “…feeling good about ourselves and our place in the world.” Think about it, there’s got to be a limit on how much anyone can keep trying something and failing without being declared legally insane. So, yah, I guess we hang in there for the 10% conversion rate, and there is a score, and winners, and losers because if guys start rationalizing it instead of treating it like a game for game’s sake they’d just be staring at a whole pile of negative ROI. Yes, there are wrong ways, right ways, better places/events etc but if we weren’t keeping score and tracking stats (building a baseline) we couldn’t even say we were getting any better at it! lol :)
This is like playing the lottery, except some of your buddies are playing the same damn lottery and they’re winning more or less frequently. Or they’re fishing, or it’s a horse race. Whatever you like. Note: at this stage all we’re talking about is the male behind-the-scenes of making a social connection with someone of the opposite sex. And by connection I mean having a conversation of sufficient quality that they lady may like to try it again.
Last thing:
If you get TO into the game your a playa, opt out and you wind up talking to your buddies all night. Shrug. Now when I go out tonight to the NextWeb meetup I’m going to compare my stats to last Saturday and if my ROI or success rate (I deliberately left success kinda vague) is lower then just possibly it’s not the right place for me to meet da’ ladies. ;)
P.S. – No, I am a faaaaaar cry from anyone’s idea of a player but you either get yourself success oriented or you quit the field.
@Bill, Sorry about getting so way off topic but I was trying to understand this better myself. :)
@Steve & @Carrie: No problem at all, haha Great conversation! :D
I’m just sitting back with the popcorn and reading along! :D
@ Steve,
I suppose that was a bad choice of words on my part, eesh. Anyway, I think my main idea was supposed to be something like, Dudes Are Annoying. And by “dudes” I don’t mean EVERY guy. The term Dude is reserved for special men who are at bars trying 7 or 8 times to approach women. ha ha.
I’ve been called a man-hater before, and sometimes have even claimed to be a man-hating lesbo (ha ha, I think I even read about this technique of repelling men in one of Bill’s other posts) But really it’s just kind of fun to really piss off dudes that approach me.
It’s like the men are playing their game of trying to get women, and I am playing my game…a game of pissing them off. It’s quite fun, we sometimes go to certain bars just because we KNOW there is a good supply of dudes lookin’ to hook up and therefore we’re guaranteed to get some good insults in. It’s all in good fun, right? ha ha!
Suppose I WERE looking to actually meet someone at a bar, yeah, then I would go and talk to the dude who isn’t talking me up because that, to me, is more interesting than the constant barrage of men just plopping down at my table like hey, I’m your dream douche… lucky you. eh, not really.
@Carrie: I see what you mean about how annoying it must be to see guys blatantly trying out chick after chick in succession, trying to get on with ANYONE they can. By the time that guy approaches you, he’s perceived (and rightfully so, haha) as completely inauthentic, which is entirely unromantic. :D
Yes, I’ve posted about “fake lesbo” technique, haha except as a style for women to GAIN attention that they wouldn’t otherwise have received. However, now that you mention it, it’s simultaneously a deterrent to guys actually kicking it to them (assuming the guy cares that she’s claiming to be physically attracted to women, which most guys don’t, because the more chicks, the merrier), so it serves both purposes. It gets the attention without her actually having to deal with suitors.
The Man-Hating thing is pretty funny, yet also understandable. In most situations, men and women have nothing in common at all except for physical attraction to each other. When they have to interact on other levels, a lot of tolerance and compromise is involved. He wants her to watch the game with him (or just GTFO so *HE* can watch the game, hahaha) and she wants him to watch some chick flick with her. *YAWN* Enough instances of these mental incompatibilities and women start getting that “all he wants from me is sex” vibe, which, in a lot of cases isn’t far from the truth. :D
That’s actually a pretty funny game, to go to bars where you know guys are going to kick it to you so you can have fun at their expense, since they’re trying to have fun at YOURS. :) Bravo! haha I mean, it’s a little like shooting fish in a barrel, but I see how it could be a good emotional and mental “getback” for all the garbage you have to hear insted of a guy just telling you he wants to hook up with you.
It’s also important to make that distinction between your disliking men who carry themselves in a certain fashion and men in general. Because I write THE TRUTH (and take certain liberties so I can get my LAUGH on), a lot of people think that I dislike women as people, when in fact, I’m in contact with women all day every day and MOST of my friends are women.
Ah yes, it WAS about attracting men rather than repelling them. It’s all coming back to me now.
I don’t hate ALL men. That would be a totally ignorant statement, I just like to have fun at the expense of the ones I don’t like, which happen to be the ones that are most prone to approach me at a bar, on the street etc etc. So keep it comin’ dudes, there is fun to be had all around.
Being an equal opportunity hater, I am also guaranteed to clarify when accused of being racist i.e. “What? You think you’re too good for a black man” tsk tsk. This happens an awful lot and I often respond with “douchebag comes in all colors, my friend!”
@Carrie: Yeah, that’s a pretty lame tactic. :/
The racist angle is a variant on a basic “Guilt Technique” that aims to get the chick to give it up in order not to appear to be what the “suitor” accuses her of. The most common is the generic “Conceited!” accusation.
The obvious problem with doing this is that unless she states WHY she doesn’t want to kick it with you, your speculations are worthless. Also, your presentation is made up of too many parameters for you to choose which one she’s rejecting you for. Maybe she doesn’t like guys with sneakers on. Maybe she only likes guys that wear suits. Maybe she doesn’t like ANY guys at all that kick it to her in the street. Maybe she was testing you to see what your reaction would be to her rejecting you. Maybe you’re too short or too tall for her tastes, etc, etc, etc…
Unfortunately, “You think you’re too good for a black man?” says more about HIS state of mind than yours.
Wow, Carrie and Steve, first of all I must say, you are both great writers. I wish I had popcorn too,I enjoyed every minute of your written banter! OK, I’ve had the life, (ex Miss California, Prime time TV star etc,etc…(fit into Bill’s and most men’s criteria of what was to be hunted), I was you carrie and have thought and acted like both steve and you, I am older now but still enjoying every minute of the game. Two nights ago I went to a restaurant with a friend down in Soho, just sitting with her chatting about Graham Colton(Best Days song writer and artist) and the show he had at the Canal Room that we just left. Sitting at the bar at a very “hip” for a lack of better terms restaurant ordering a drink when all of a sudden, I look at the doorway and, BOOM, in walks a man with 4 beautiful models on his arm (The place was Harry C)I take one look and once again BOOM, he hits me. I don’t know him, his name or anything else about him. I do know that there are 4 unbelievable Looking women 20 years younger than me(right up Bill’s alley) around him and yes he was younger too but maybe 12 years!).I simply had to talk to him, a Boom is a rare occurrence and because of the experience I have, I decided to make it happen. I approached him, the four models ended up going upstairs to the Private club and he and I had dinner together and it was magical! He is one of the most beautiful men I have ever met(physically) and I made it happen, no odds, no age, no color factors, no bullshit, just a big Boom. Whatever happens from here is all good. Have either of you ever felt a Boom? (That’s when you look at another person and it feels like you recieved this bolt that literally throws you back,I mean physically back!) It’s an incredible feeling. I had it by simply turning up at the right place, right time, right guy! Looking forward to Bill’s comment on this,and of coarse both of yours also! All brilliant writers who are so articulate with your feelings, I will get such a kick out of all of your opinions. Bill,I must say, you are usually right on the pulse! FYI: The evening ended with the sweetest kiss(OK a couple) and reminded me of a great song by Louie Armstrong, “A Kiss to Build a Dream On” Just another readers experience who so enjoys all the play.
@Michelle,
Ah yes, the right place at the right time. I would say of all my relationships, the more lasting and important ones started this way. When something is all orchestrated by friends or by too much effort at the bar etc, it always seems to fall flat. But when a certain person just seems to be popping up randomly in your life (which was the case with my current BF) it IS one of those “BOOM” moments, and it’s pretty cool. Like cool in the sense that you’re smiling all day after running into them. (And yeah, smiling for me… pretty rare. Remember, I’m that man-hating bitch! ha ha)
The one time I DID sort of initiate something with someone that I met at the bar and didn’t get a real strong connection with (but I thought he was cute) WAS SO DREADFUL!!!
Yes, I know I am the one who dated him for a whole month, but when you have ALL your gay friends telling you how hot your new BF is every minute it makes you think, eh, I don’t have anything else goin on right now, so I might as well keep hanging out with him… (that was the first mistake… listening to the gay boys when it comes to dating. They, at least MY friends, tend to only need a pretty face. ha. And please note that I say that with total love for my gay boyfriends)
Anyway, it was the standard case of MIMBO-ISM. He was like the Dumb but Hawt Blonde of Tall Dark and Handsome men. I still have nightmares about some of the conversations we had…eeeehhhh. And for the icing on the cake (drumroll please) he was TERRIBLE IN BED. He proved a theory that I have had about super hot dudes… They sleep around and have all these drunken one night stands and never acquire any sort of skills or knowledge about sex. It’s just the drunken lets make out for a couple minutes then I’m going to whip IT out.
I’ve gone a bit off topic here, but anyway, yes, the right place, time and dude usually works MUCH better than the forced situation.
Michelle, Carrie, Bill, Mom, Dad, Future employers, et al,
I’m still digesting Carrie’s earlier comments and I’ve moved from generalities to looking in the mirror. I was debating whether to share my ruminations for a long while… anyway, here goes:
Am I a “dude”? Would a dude ask himself if he was a dude? Would a dude ask himself if he was a dude on the undying internet for all to read?
If I talk to 4 or 5 women in one setting (that’s my hard limit ‘cause I burn out), and I really mean try to start a conversation, not that “Hey baby†crap. Even IF that got a response I can’t see it leading to a conversation I would enjoy, and first things first, I am out to have fun on that given evening. BUT do I need to make it less obvious that I’m just trying to have fun? Do some women perceive it’s at their expense? If they do should I care that they took it the wrong way or just shrug it off and say “People will either get me or notâ€?
When I go out it’s always with a couple of other single guys who are a, uh, little less likely than I am to start a conversation. So I’m the one that has to nerve up and jump in (Geronimoooooo!). So, yeah, you may see me talking to several women. But do you know what I’m saying to them? You might actually want to hear it. I’ve also spent hours having great one-on-one chats in mixed groups then followed up with emails that went unanswered. Given that, isn’t it a fair expectation that I should just focus on the enjoyment I get from playing and refining my “game”? Which in the end is just me working on my presentation – how efficiently yet indirectly (earnestness can be perceived as creepy so there’s a fine line) can I get across that I’m an okey doke fella, I can be funny if you work with me, I’m safe to be around, and I’m genuinely interested in hearing what you have to say BUT you still need to say something interesting or I’ll roll…
Nah, I don’t think I’m a “dude†and I prolly don’t want whoever it is they’re winning over. I’m glad to say that as a guy who’s been out of the dating scene for a verrrrrrrry long time I’ve found some ways to enjoy it just for what it is. It’s actually taken me a couple of years to see all this the right way. Meaning realistic expectations and a conscious decision to jump in the pool. Hopefully society won’t shun me for over-thinking it. :)
@Carrie – Table ploppers are “Space Invaders”. You’re SUPPOSED to shoot them down! :D
Now on to Carrie’s most recent post of a wonderful learning experience. I’m practicing tact here.
Ok, it cracked me the hell up! :)
Nothing but questions:
You slept with a pretty brick because you were bored/lonely? Or was it because you did the rare thing and initiated but didn’t want to admit to yourself that just maybe you made a mistake? Or both? And how did you feel about being an initiator after this relationship? Why didn’t you get together with your current BF sooner since he’d already been popping up randomly, bad timing, didn’t notice?
@Steve,
Answers: Totally bored and a bit unwilling to admit he was THAT dumb. I met him right at the beginning of my three week summer break from school so I was like Hey, I’ve been single for awhile so I’ll chance hangin’ with this guy for a little bit.
At first I was like, ok, maybe he’s just nervous or something. Maybe he’s just had a bit too much to drink blah blah blah. I know, I know, I shouldn’t have made excuses, but I thought by giving him more time I was giving him a fair chance to be himself. Then I realized that he was just a MIMBO and when he said things like “people tell me I look like a mix of Johnny Depp and Tommy Lee” or (to my friend Tim) “too bad for you, I’m not gay” he was not being funny or sarcastic, he was being SERIOUS. Diluted and serious. Gives me chills just thinking about it. BLET!!!
That experience totally made me realize that my instincts are RIGHT ON, and had I listened to them during the first few times, hell, the FIRST time we hung out I wouldn’t have had to endure that month of looking at him like he was an alien when he did things like inform me that The Daily Show is making fun of REAL politics. ha ha ….ehhhhh.
About the current BF- At first I didn’t notice him, but I saw him 5 days a week for nearly 2 years. He was a regular customer at the coffee shop I was working at, and purely by convenience because he lived right next door to it. I had a boyfriend for part of the time, he had a live-in girlfriend for part of the time. We never talked during our interactions except to take his order because I thought he always looked crabby. I dubbed him Crabby Guy and made all of my coworkers refer to him in this way, you know, so we would all know who we were talking about. “crabby guy already paid for his refill” and so on.
He started working with my sisters boyfriend and she met him one night, they talked and she found out he comes into my work. I was like What? Crabby Guy works with J? I thought he was gay. ha ha, turns out he’s not, but we already know how I love my gay boys!
Cut to me running into Crabby guy at a bar, to say I was drunk would be quite the understatement. But I, in my drunken haze, found it interesting that I was seeing crabby guy at a bar and not in the coffee shop so I approached him. We chatted for a minute, I believe I filled him in on the whole “crabby guy” nickname (ehhh, embarrassing!) and then my friends and I left. About a month later, he came into my work and asked me to dinner.
Men and women are built differently. Lat’s be honest. We have no chance of being as attractive as women. On the other hand, you can find something attractive about almost any woman if you look at them. That’s just the way it is.
I totally agree with this reasoning. Although I do find myself dating and dealing with really attractive men primarily but most of them are guys i just happened to know from around the way and I guess I got to know their character better, so it was on. However if Idris Elba (Wire) passes by me on a street in BK I am pouncing on him, those looks really count. ;)
Hey Tina. Thanks for the comment. :)
I didn’t say women don’t PREFER good-looking men, haha I’m just saying that it’s easier for a busted guy to get a date than a busted gal, because the guy can use his personality and humor to get over.
The obvious exception to that rule is the ugly girl with the bangin’ body, being that the guy might be willing to forego “ease and pleasantness of looking at her face” and risk the potential embarrassment of their boys seeing them with her if they feel that the end-game is worth it when they get to smack it up, flip it, rub it down… OH NOOOOO!…
… in the dark, of course. :D
When women were not doing the choosing was the 1950s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We choose, AND we reject.
Also…being “respectful and loving and caring and thoughtful” is nice…but…
I want to be with you if you are H O T !!!! I like intelligence!!!! THAT is attractive!!!!!! A sense of humor, with intelligence? I’m a goner. I’m yours!!
If you’re “respectful and loving and caring and thoughtful,” and dumb and boring…guess what?? You Walk! (Ha)
You seem to have some H O T qualities (except for the chauvinism) :)
Hey Pat. Thanks for the comment. :)
You’re right about the choosing.. As soon as they let women have jobs in order to replace the massive numbers of factory-working American men that were being killed in the wars overseas, all of that “old maid”, “sit home and wait for a man to sweep you off your feet and give you a life” stuff went out the window! :D
However.. It’s been my experience in this particular town (New York City, NY, USA), that HAWT doesn’t win the day for guys. It’ll definitely get a gal to check you out, but as soon as you’re determined to be dumb as a box of rocks, you’re through.
Money’s a different story altogether. You can get lots of chicks in this town with money. This is because things are expensive and women don’t want to shell out their own ducats for them so as long as the guy is footing the bill, he can procure female companionship.
Having said that, it’s always A PLUS, so guys should definitely do their best to maintain their looks & physiques, lest their gal’s eye begins to a-wander… ;)
Well, I think looks are like “fishing lures” for guys. Women get attracted in by the looks and then they get “Hooked” by the personality. If a guy’s LOOKS – “His Lure” is all busted up and gross, then a women wont want to get anywhere near his hook…unless she’s a blind, half-retarded fish…in which case, most guys would just throw her back.
Thanks for the comment, Mojo :)
You’re right, except in the cases where the guys work with the chicks in question. They basically have a captive audience. That doesn’t stop gals from shunning guys they don’t like on the job, but it’s a lot easier to meet women when there seems to be a reason for you to meet them, like you both need to go to the same place to make money.
Also, sometimes, after a few bad dates with attractive guys, some women get fed up and then you can get a good bargain on them until they get over that. Sometimes women just want to go out with guys that they don’t feel are better than they are, or at least guys that don’t THINK they’re better than the gals are! :D
The writer of this article is SO wrong. Men don’t have ANY power. They THINK they have power in the dating game, but they don’t. Women hold all the cards. They have the power to reject AND choose. This dude writes like it’s still the 1800s or something. Women DO NOT hold back anymore. They KNOW what they want. And contrary to what the writer says, they WILL come up to men when they SEE what they want. It’s true, men ARE visual creatures, but SO ARE WOMEN. But where men place importance on a woman’s body, women place it on a man’s face. So women do have it easier than men. Because even an AVERAGE looking woman who has a nice figure or big boobs or something will get hit on. She will have POWER over men. Men are attracted to women PERIOD and are not as selective as women.
Women on the other hand(especially today) are VERY selective. And they are VERY visual too. But they place MOST of their visual importance on a guys face. Think about it. Ugly and Average guys can go to the gym and build a body of a Greek God…but they still aren’t going to get any action!!! While a woman with an average or even ugly face but who has a fly shapely body will be considered SEXY and get hit on A LOT. Men will be falling all over themselves to get to her.
A man on the other hand has to have a model face, with chiseled looks worthy of celebrity to get the same kind of reaction from women.
You’ve all seen it. If you’re honest, you’ve all seen how women literally fall all over themselves when a Brad Pitt type walks into a bar or a room. Women go NUTS. They giggle and grab their friends and practically SQUEEL with excitement. They throw out terms like “OH MY GOD HE’S SOOOOO HAWT!!!!” or “HE’S SOOOO FWINE!!!!
They even get raunchy like guys and say things like, “THE THINGS I’D LET HIM DO TO ME!!” “HE COULD TAP THIS ANYTIME!!!”
So forget all that bull crap the media and this guy feed you about how women don’t want sex or aren’t visual. THEY ARE. They’re just more SELECTIVE.
They only act like guys when they see a guy with a handsome face. A guy with a handsome face will get women falling all over them. Giving them their phone #s and emails. Women WILL go up to guys and CHOOSE them….IF THEY HAVE A HANDSOME FACE.
Otherwise….you are crap out of luck. Sure, money and power MAY get a woman to notice you….but they will still be lusting after the handsome guys. And ultimately women want the Handsome guy who is also Rich.
And all those guys who complain about being short or bald? Don’t. It’s still about the face. If you are handsome it won’t matter if you are bald or short. I have seen women go weak in the knees over men who are shorter than average or bald. Look at Tom Cruise. He’s what? 5′7??? And look at guys like David Becham who shave their head.
When will men realize the truth? It’s about their faces. PERIOD.
But a fat woman can work out and become HOT while an ugly man can sculpt his body into a Greek Statue to no avail.
Can’t you SEE the truth???
Women have it MUCH easier than men. Women CHOOSE and REJECT. They have ALL the power.
The great equalizer??? Is Age. Women fear it. Sooner or later most women will hit it, and no amount of plastic surgery will save them.
Although 40 is the new 30, and women can hold onto their power for much longer these days.
Bottom line is that men are at a severe disadvantage thru most of their youth and into their middle age if they aren’t handsome.
Money helps later, but nowadays it doesn’t help as much as it used to. Women want it all, and if you don’t have it? Well…keep dreaming.
And as far as nice guys go? Yeah, EVERY woman will say they want a nice guy. As long as he has a handsome face that is. If not, “nice guy” is code for “LOSER”.
Truth hurts.
Men have it much tougher.
Excellent write-up, JS. Thank you for the detailed comment. :)
I’m going to try to list your points so I can respond. Please let me know if I misunderstand what you’re saying:
ok… As far as men being at a disadvantage, EVERYONE’S at a disadvantage if they’re less physically or visually attractive than the next person. I discussed this over a year ago, in February 2008, in “Life Isn’t Fair”. You’re saying that guys are at a disadvantage when it comes to women in general. I’m saying guys have a disadvantage when it comes to other guys and gals have a disadvantage when it comes to other gals. Life is just BETTER for attractive people. It’ll never be different.
As far as women saying raunchy things about guys whom they’d love to do all sorts of deliciously dirty things to them, that’s true too. I agree with you 100% that IF a woman chooses you, she’s going to act completely differently around you than when she’s around some guy that’s nice enough and polite enough, but she just never thinks about hooking up with this guy.
I also agree with you that women are sexually more selective than men are. There are biological reasons for this as well as societal pressures to not want people to believe that they’re “sluts”. There’s also the reason that women generally tend to get emotionally wrapped up in sex while guys are “getting girls”, and the good times that are had are appreciated, but it’s really emotionally no big deal. I won’t bother getting into the technical issues of “body memory”….
As far as women losing power as they get older, that’s true in most cases, but not true in some cases. If a woman is becoming a better human being through her life experiences, she’s probably way more attractive when she’s older than she was when she was younger. Not everybody likes ditzy girls with big tits….. wait… EVERYBODY likes ditzy girls with big tits, but my point is that intelligence, sensuality, sexuality, world-view and overall understanding of life in general can be very sexy if a woman develops herself mentally and emotionally during her dating career instead of just accepting shopping sprees and free dinners and remaining an idiot.
It’s the women who remain idiots who ultimately lose their power over men because the only reason guys were talking to them at all was because they wanted to have sex with them. Women with CLASS are going to have men that want to spend time with them for many, many, many, many, many years after the ditzy sex-chicks become has-beens and nobody pays any attention to them anymore or ever holds the door open for them to pass through.
So now, we come to where I disagree with your point…
While it’s true that women are the ones who choose whether to spread their legs or not, that doesn’t equal “power”. I discussed this back in July 2008, in “5 Tips on How To Get A Girlfriend”. The *ONLY* reason a woman would have power over YOU through her choice of whether to have sex with you or not is if you have ONLY. ONE. WOMAN! Does that make sense?
If you have only one woman, that’s YOUR FAULT for not exercising YOUR POWER and getting more than one. If YOU chose to put all your eggs in one basket, that’s YOUR PROBLEM and you can’t blame it on women for all choosing to have sex with Brad Pitt…. GO. GET. OTHER. WOMEN… GO. GET. *MORE*. WOMEN. :D
If you can’t find any more really attractive women, LOWER. YOUR. STANDARDS. Do not complain about how women are all choosey unless YOU’VE kicked it with women that you consider less attractive and even THEY didn’t want to mess with you.
Do you see where this is going?… The power which women obviously have, which is the power to give it up or not give it up, ONLY extends as far as the physical boundaries of their own bodies. It’s YOU that’s giving women power over YOU by saying that if particular women don’t have sex with you, you can’t get laid at all.
Similarly, YOU have ZERO POWER over a woman getting pregnant. If she says she wants to get pregnant, you can just tell her “go ahead” and see what happens. The ONLY way you have power in that situation is if she wants to get pregnant BY YOU, and you haven’t made any donations to the sperm bank. Get it?
So, yes, women have power. Power over themselves, not over YOU. If the hawt chicks you know don’t want to give you some, start hanging out with other chicks. Hang out in another town. Move to another country. Do whatever you have to do to make your quality of life what you want it to be.
Is it TOUGH for non-handsome dudes to get on? Yup. Is it unfortunate? Yup. Unfortunately, that’s life, in the United States, at least. That’s why guys develop tricks and scams to cheat women out of sex. That’s why guys lie and tell chicks ANYTHING to get them to lay down.
Start studying and get your game up. If that doesn’t work, make sure you hang out in places where the guys look worse than you do and you’ll be King of the Hill.
Thanks again for the comment. :)
[...] is a reply to a comment that reader JS left on “Why Women Have To Be Attractive And Men Don’t”. I thought he had some interesting [...]
Any time I hear either sex (usually male) trying to lord it over the other, I get suspicious. First, more and more women seem to be choosing not to marry at all. They have their own jobs and income and don’t need men for that purpose. AND, most women between ? and 50 can also create their own family without an assist from any particular man. Men actually need a woman to have a family, even if that woman is a paid surrogate. Because of these things, women actually have one intrinsic value that men don’t have. However, some women still want men in their lives, and men to father their children. Some women also would like a man to pay the bills. So any time men try to proclaim that women have less value, I think a firm reminder regarding these issues will get them back into the land of reality. As to the issue of being a “chooser” or not….women actually place themselves in a position to be chosen. When a woman doesn’t want to be “chosen” by a particular man, all he is doing is playing ’scratch and sniff’. Placing oneself in the position to be chosen is a postive action, just like being chosen.
Hey Madeline. Thanks for the comments. Very interesting. :)
I agree with you entirely that women are the ones that can have children. This is why it’s retarded when couples say “WE’RE pregnant”. No, y’all are NOT. SHE is pregnant and HE is not. Regardless of what happens to HIM, *she* can still have the kid, because his job is done, as far as the process of procreation.
I also agree that women don’t necessarily need men at all. I talked about this over a year ago, in February 2008, in “It’s The End of The World as We Know It! :(“. Women can just step to the sperm bank and select something they like.
Men do not need women to have a family. All they have to do is ADOPT. There are enough children without parents in this world that men can have families anytime they want. Granted, those kids won’t be passing that man’s genetic makeup into the next generation, but the guy’s going to be dead anyway, so who cares?
You’re absolutely right that if a man wants to have HIS OWN kids, he has to get them via a woman. The tough part there isn’t getting a woman to have your kids, but rather getting a woman that looks the way you like and is intelligent and kind enough with enough natural common sense to make you feel like adding your genes to hers will probably create an attractive, intelligent kid.
Speaking of paying women to have your kids, lots of women are available to men that have money for sexual purposes leading to procreation or not. The fact that women can be bought is a plus for MEN, not for women.
I don’t think I said anywhere that women have less value than men. That’s retarded. People are people. There are superior and inferior women. There are superior and inferior men. Feel free to point out where you feel I said that and I’ll discuss whatever point I was trying to make.
Your analogy of women placing themselves in position to be chosen isn’t very helpful to women, IMO. :D Basically, you’re saying that an animal places itself in the perfect position for the Lion to eat it, and you’re calling that a positive action. Meanwhile, the Lion’s going to eat the animal regardless.
It would have been a stronger position for you to say that women choose men that they want to mess with just like men choose women. In fact, women choose men that are already spoken for, which is why they’re called home-wreckers and other names.
Putting on makeup and a mini and bending over by the bar isn’t necessarily a “positive action”. Stepping to a man you’d like to talk to and suggesting that y’all talk for a while and see what happens, IS.
Thanks again for the comments. :)
This may sound naive but why as a society are there rules to the dating game as it is called. I really do not understand these things, as I usually don’t even bother with clubs and things of that nature as I feel like I am playing a role that society wants.
I do not understand. I just like going out and saying hello to people and having a chat. I really do not understand all the dynamics and it sounds quite complicated.
In dating I just be myself and it seems that usually is not too effective so I gave up on the dating competitive thing and just enjoy my time as I really never understood what is occuring.
In my past it seems everyone is vying for attention, especially the men and a lot go on foolishly to gain attention from women.
Why do men do this? As a man I usually just become someones friend and then ask them out. The dating game seems very complicated to me with all the rules and things… its confusing
It’s not naive. Most people don’t understand how dating actually works.
“Being yourself” is only effective if who you are is exactly what she wants. You’re being judged by women on a lot of things, including whether you held the door for her or insisted that she ordered first when the waiter came to your table. You’re being judged on whether you kiss her or you don’t. You’re being judged on whether you press her for sex or you don’t. You’re being judged on whether you’re making her feel like she’s the only girl you’re paying attention to or not. It’s really much more than how you dress and whether you show up on time.
The goal of dating is to demonstrate why you’re better than the next man. Period. If you’re not doing that, you’re not doing **** and as soon as someone convinces her that they’re better than you, you’re SHORT.
Unfortunately, “better” is relative and each gal has her own perception of what makes one guy better than the next one, which is where the sport comes in. You have to be able to flow with the situation, except in those rare cases where “being yourself” is all she needs to begin to feel turned on by you.
Bill,
You’re suggestion that women have to “be attractive” where men don’t still misses the mark on several levels. If all men vanished from the earth today, women would still wear makeup and enjoy fashion. :-) And, it’s not really up to you to determine whether or not placing oneself in a position to “be chosen” is a “positive action”. You’re not, like Bush, the ‘decider’.
For example, all those folks who compete in contests are placing themselves in a position to be selected. I’d hardly call that a negative action. And, let’s return to my comment that not all women are wanting to be chosen at all, especially by the madding crowd of available men.
When a particular woman places herself in such a position, it is she who has already decided. :-)
My own mate often makes the comment that he chased me until I caught him. :-) BTW, regarding your “homewrecker” comment, a woman cannot wreck something that’s intact. If a man cheats on his wife, that is on him. If a woman cheats on her husband, that is on her.
Regarding you comment about prostitution or “bought” women, the only way a woman like that is in a weak position, is if she has no other options or is enslaved by a pimp. Who is in the weak position, the person who is paying or the person who is paid? :-) I suppose you’ll be saying that the car dealer who just got money from you is in the weaker position when he sold you that car. :-)
Now that I’ve debunked your theory on the weaker sex, let’s go back to biological parenthood. Adopting children is not something men usually do. Most men don’t want the responsibility unless they are raising a small “mini-me”. Women can and do have their own biological children with or without a particular man. In that regard, they are in a superior position.
In closing, I’m not suggesting that women are better than men; I’m simply stating the obvious, that in a world where women are equally treated they are more than able to do the choosing. Why?
Because being treated equally does not make women similarly situated. Think about it.
Mimi
WOWWWWWWW!!! :D
SEVEN (7) MONTHS LATER, Madeline’s back on the case!
Welcome back! *waves* :)
Agreed that women wear makeup to impress themselves and because they feel they look better when they see themselves in the mirror…. However, you have to think about how women GOT that way in the first place. O_o
Agreed that “placing one’s self in a position to be chosen” can be a positive action, a submissive action or no action at all.
Agreed also that women decide which guys they want to select them.. assuming they proactively place themselves in a position for that guy to choose her.
The women who don’t want to be chosen are in the best position of all because they don’t have to play the game.
Agreed that “I chased you until you caught me” is a good pick-up line. Very similar to “You had me from ‘Hello’”. Line Approved. :)
A woman can most certainly “wreck something that’s intact”, unless you use the definition of the relationship BECOMING broken in the very second that the guy decides to hook up with the ‘homewrecking’ chick. Other than that, all that’s required is for the woman to have a stronger will than the man and enough time, energy and desire to make it happen. Can ALL people be made to cheat? Most definitely not. Lots of guys that had no intention of breaking their vows have never had a chick they wanted throw it at them, and some of those guys decide to dip the wick when the REAL pressure’s on.
Agreed that broke prostitutes are in a weak position relative to rich prostitutes.
The person getting paid (= the prostitute) is in the weak position. The guy is paying for something he could very well get from any other chick. Unless she’s the only blonde in a town full of redheads, the only reason she’s getting his money is that she isn’t currently ‘occupied’. The John (person who pays a prostitute for sex) is also in the strong position because he gets what he wants and then walks away. He doesn’t have to hear her opinion about kids or taking out the garbage.
Having said that, the prostitute is in a strong position if she can put herself through college merely by spreading her legs several dozen times a night.
Interesting car dealer analogy, however, a car dealer is selling a car. A prostitute is selling her ASS. There’s a slight chance that she might begin to feel depressed that a) the only thing people are willing to give her any money for is sexual favors, and b) when she’s no longer hawt, her rates are going to drop like thermometers in the 2010 blizzard. She might very well feel “So Fresh and So Clean, Clean” until she’s blowing dudes for minimum wage.
Having said that, there are people depressed that they’re car salesmen, so you may have a point there. :)
Just so we’re clear, I’m pretty sure I’ve never called women “The weaker sex” and you brought that term to the discussion with your last comment.
If it’s true that adopting children is not something men usually do, that’s probably because we weren’t given baby dolls, carriages, tea sets and ovens to play with as little kids. Those were given to women to set y’all up for taking care of kids and thinking you’re playing a fun game while guys do interesting stuff like watch the game, go out for brews and play paintball.
Why would men want responsibility? \o/ We have fun stuff to do, like chasing chicks. This is a mistake that a lot of gals make when they get pregnant. They think the guy, who clearly made a mistake, is going to suddenly be interested in raising a kid when all he had been trying to do was get some ass. THEN, those same women turn around and complain that he’s not changing diapers and all sorts of things that we NEVER intended to do in our entire lives. C’est La Vie.
Agreed.. Women are in the superior position when it comes to having and raising kids. Like I said, that’s what all that baby carriage training was for when you were younger. I wrote about this almost exactly two years ago, in February 2008 when I read about British scientists trying to figure out how to make babies from women’s bone marrow. I said two years ago that if they figure out how to do this, guys are SHORT!!! :D
Your closing statement mentions “a world where women are treated equally”. Where is that, exactly? :D
That. Was. The. Entire. Point. Of. My. Article. :)
Women are not treated equally to men and unattractive women are not treated equally to attractive women. They hold BEAUTY pageants, not UGLY pageants. :)
When have you ever heard of (for women OR men) an intelligence contest? Never. Nobody cares. When have you seen a tough-to-look-at female news anchor? Never. When have you heard a guy go “Wow! She’s REALLY unattractive! :) I’m gonna go meet her!”? Never.
The fact of the matter is that attractive people get more stuff. If a chick looks good, a lot of guys will let her slide on a crabby personality or no earning potential or dating several other dudes or whatever shenanigans she can think up and then watch all that go down the tubes when she doesn’t look like that anymore.
Meanwhile, unattractive guys can still get over with a pleasant personality, good sense of humor, mastery in the bedroom, high earning potential, dressing well to hide their wack physiques…
I’m not creating the rules of the game, I’m just reporting on them and trying to start a conversation which I’m glad you’ve joined with your interesting comments. :) I think the world would be much more interesting if women were judged less on their looks and men were judged more on our looks.
Until that time, Sephora in Times Square closes at midnight. :D
Bill,
My point in this whole thing is to refute your thesis that women “have to be” more attractive than men. Clearly, you have to admit that there are couples where the ‘groom is prettier than the bride’. :-) So your theory fails when it comes to the specific couples we know where that happens.
Now to the generality, today there is very little that free and equal women “have to” be or do. Free and equal women have choices and those choices include refusing to settle. If they can’t find an attractive mate, they need not settle at all. In the year 2020, I’ve heard that Chinese men won’t find women to wed at all. They’ll have to settle for older, less attractive women and buy mail order. I find that somehow amusing. :-)
I have to go to work, so I don’t have time to address these other issues, but I live in Cali
so Sephora in Times Square won’t cut it for me.
:-)
More later,
Mimi
I couldn’t resist weighing in.
“Clearly, you have to admit that there are couples where the ‘groom is prettier than the bride’.” – Attractiveness is not 100% objective. YOU’ve seen couples where YOU thought the groom was prettier than the bride. What matters the most is what the groom’s perception of his attractiveness may be. That’s a self image/esteem thing. He may not think he’s all that and a bag of chips. Plus, people get together for all kinds of reasons! Maybe the dude’s experience with “attractive” women is that he’s been constantly competing to keep them around because they’re in high demand. Additionally he may be doing that rare thing and seeing her “inner beauty”. Or she reminds him of his mom. Maybe he’s in a really tight social or professional circle and dating someone outside of that comes with too many hurdles. Like actors. speaking of which, maybe they’re just broken the same way internally and appreciate that in each other. Like obviously Brad Pitt must be because his wife is definitely NOT attractive so much as she is a well groomed collection of mismatched features and parts with some parental drama thrown in. E.g. pipe cleaner arms, nice rack, weird asymmetrical lips, John Voight in the background calling her crazy in public).
Who the hell would know what Brad finds attractive about her without asking him?
Lastly, no rule concerning people is ever going to be absolute but this is a case of “more often than not”. In my opinion. ;-)
Madeline. I agree with your statement that women don’t have to be more aesthetically attractive than the men they’re dating. That’s not what I was saying. :)
I was saying that men judge women on looks MORE THAN women judge men on looks, because women mostly require more than looks to get hooked on a man and men mostly ONLY require looks to get hooked on a woman. I wasn’t talking about relative attractiveness, but that’s a good blog post topic, thank ye very kindly! :D
If there’s a hot chick that’s a PAIN IN THE NECK when it comes to hooking up with her and there’s a not-as-attractive girl that’s begging you to do whatever you want to her, a lot of guys will pick the ‘lesser’ chick and call it a day. The other chick’s nicer to look at, but she’s useless. Let someone who wants to pay for a trophy wife have the other one and spend the money left over from her engagement ring on hookers.
I also agree that there’s very little that women “have to do”. Definitely agree. That doesn’t mean they’re NOT being judged on what they’re bringing to the table, visually & sexually. I don’t know how it is in Cali, but here in NYC, we don’t have any overweight news anchors. Even AL ROKER got his stomach stapled and can’t fit in his clothes anymore. Look at Star Jones, looking like she went by the Witch Doctor and had everything shrunken *EXCEPT* for her head! :D
Women can be whatever they want to be…… *AND* they’re going to be judged for it differently than men will.
Oh man… That *IS* rather funny… Mail order brides *TO* China! :D hahaha Thanks for that! :D
Steve brings up another reason why saying “Guys only go out with women more aesthetically attractive than they are” wouldn’t make any sense. People bond on different levels. Maybe your girl’s not fantastically fly, but she’s loyal and if a fight breaks out, she’s gonna be punching the guy that’s trying to punch you. Maybe you both share experiences because you work in the same field or grew up in the same type of neighborhoods or families. It could be anything.
On top of that, as Steve also pointed out, looks are entirely subjective. You can only say FOR YOURSELF whether the guy or girl in the relationship is the more attractive one. If we were standing in China with the IMPORTED mail-order brides, the answer might be different about who’s attractive and who isn’t.
Anyway, Madeline.. My point is that when they start having beauty pageants for males and female construction workers cat-calling at men walking by the construction site, trying to get laid, you just let me know! ;)
“Anyway, Madeline.. My point is that when they start having beauty pageants for males and female construction workers cat-calling at men walking by the construction site, trying to get laid, you just let me know! ;)”
Bingo! thats the whole point right there its not because your female you have to try to look better its because your the one doing the attracting not the one being attracted. When a guy walks into a bar with 30+ ladies in it he has to figure out quickly and efficiently who he wants to talk to (target assessment) in other words something has to catch you eye and its not always the prettiest girl. It could simply be a quick smile flashed your way or just the right amount of cleavage or a nice mini-skirt enhanced booty.OTOH females can look for personality or looks, they can either kill your rap before its born or sit there and figure out what kind of guy you are. Which position is more powerful? which ever one you know how to play better.
Cjay, you and Bill are both looking at things from the male point of view. Attraction is a two way street and not where the male is the attracted and the female is the attractor. That’s where the male ego hits the road for me. I think where you and Bill may be confused is that women are not as aggressive in their pursuit of romance, love and/or sex. And, the reason for that is partly because they don’t HAVE TO be.
:-)
Mimi
“Cjay, you and Bill are both looking at things from the male point of view.” And…?
“women are not as aggressive in their pursuit of romance, love and/or sex. And, the reason for that is partly because they don’t HAVE TO be.” – that’s because you’re already being pursued. This is like a deer saying, “I don’t have to worry about getting eaten by a wolf because I’m not looking for wolves.” Wolves are looking for YOU! Your choice is, which wolf are you gonna let have a nibble? ;-)
Steve,
Wow; you’re suggesting that all men are hungry wolves waiting to pounce. If I were a man I’d find that analogy rather offensive. You are also suggesting that women are natural victims. Women are choosers. They not only choose which men they want but they also choose whether or not they want any man at all.
Mimi
Steve makes the point I would have made, which is that OF COURSE it’s easier for women to get laid. Regardless of how horrible a chick might look, there’s always some Desperado willing to do the dirty work.
Similarly, the Wolf doesn’t go “You know?… That doe over there isn’t very attractive.. I’m not going to eat that one”. For some animals, “food is food” and for some guys, “***** is *****” so women are at a distinct advantage if all they want is to get pounded out for a minute and a half.
Unfortunately for you, women often want WAAAAAY more than to get laid, which is the crux of the situation. It’s easy for y’all to get INVOLVED with guys, but it’s not easy for you to gain control or secure some kind of exclusive relationship. Ask Jennifer Anniston and Tiger Woods’ wife.
These are chicks that were in high demand at the time and they still got cheated on. So, Yeah.. I agree with you that women are at an advantage, but all you get to do is decide who you spread your legs for. Once that dude’s out of your line of sight, he’s gonna do whatever he wants whenever he wants.
This is why women elect not to use their ability to get laid on the spur of the moment and attempt to blackmail guys into “relationships” before they give it up. Unfortunately, we see you coming and play the game until we’re done getting what we want.
It’s all in the game. :)
Here’s what you’re missing:
Most women don’t view love/sex/romance as a game of sports. And, any woman over the age of 16 can see right thru most men who do. That pretty much leaves you with jail bait and hookers :-)
As to Jennifer Anniston, I’m not much of a fan, but the last thing I saw on the news about her was her fabulous new home. I don’t think you need to feel sorry for either her or Tiger Woods wife. :-) Besides, have you asked either of them if they have another lover? Rich and beautiful women don’t seem to have many problems with attraction.
So, play the “game”, but those of us in the know, realize that insecure men who don’t understand the nature of the human need for love, and human connection and companionship, will end up in a place they deserve. So, when insecure men find themselves in their forties and still pretty much alone, there’s always that mail order bride thingy. :-)
Mimi
Bill
I think you are living in the past where women were forced to compete for male attention for a lack of equal rights. Today, women compete with men for education, jobs, etc. Today, women even have their own sporting events, so beauty pageants are an extra source of female advantage and hardly a negative. As to cat-calling, those men are immature babies who haven’t learned to control their emotions.
My point about mail order brides is also not a negative for women. Think of it this way, western men who are too immature to have a relationship with a free and equal western woman, are able to buy a bride from Russia or some poverty stricken nation, thus enabling that woman to escape a negative situation while also saving a western woman from interaction from an insecure man. Win-win.
As to men who wish to “judge” women on their beauty, they are also free to be that shallow.
After all, there are also women who judge men on their wallets…and perhaps the two of them deserve one another.
Mimi
Madeline, :)
Actually, I’m living in the PRESENT where women have allowed the concept of Women’s Lib and equality to take y’all mentally out of the game and make y’all easier to hook up with instead of harder.
I think I’ve agreed with like 11 out of 12 points that you’ve been making! :D
How are beauty pageants a source of female advantage? I assume you’d say the same thing about strip clubs then… wait.. Actually, you would, because you already said that Prostitutes are in the advantageous position over Johns. :) .. Well.. Renegade Prostitutes at least, that aren’t handing all their money over to a pimp after they finish their duties for the evening.
I say that beauty pageants are a source of dumbing women down by making them believe that they deserve stuff just because they’re good-looking. Why not have a statewide Female Mathematics Competition so that the winner and two runner-ups can be offered internships somewhere or even the guarantee of a job when they graduate college? O_o
What the hell is a chick going to do with a beauty pageant win? \o/
Your point about “Mail order brides being shipped to CHINA isn’t a NEGATIVE for WOMEN? HAHAHA Do you have *ANY* idea *WHY* the Chinese are running out of females?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy
The Chinese government introduced the policy in 1979 to alleviate social, economic, and environmental problems in China,[4] and authorities claim that the policy has prevented more than 250 million births from its implementation to 2000.[2] The policy is controversial both within and outside China because of the manner in which the policy has been implemented, and because of concerns about negative economic and social consequences. The policy has been implicated in an increase in forced abortions and FEMALE INFANTICIDE, and has been suggested as a possible cause behind China’s gender imbalance.
wow.
Bill,
Of course I understand completly that equal rights is not the soup ‘de jour’ in places like China and that female fetus abortion runs rampant there. The reason for that is that females don’t inherit in the same capacity and that to keep the family farm one needs a male child. However, unequal rights for women in China does not speak to your thesis that women have to be more attractive. And, in the end, all those wifeless Chinese men may indeed have to settle with older and less attractive wives whether or not they and their misogynistic policies approve.
As to beauty pageant wins, they can be a launching point for many a career. Didn’t Sarah Palin start there? :-) Pageants are not an equal opportunity event, as you suggest, but they are an EXTRA opportunity event. Women can already compete in any math or science event. As a feminist, I have no problem with pageants, but I do find them as silly as I find romance novels. I also have no objection to women using them as a launching pad for a career as….say a newscaster or some other media position. It would be interesting to know how many FEMALE media folk and journalists got their start at the Lobster Queen Festival. :-)
Finally, to address your first point here, I don’t believe it is easier for most men to “hook up” today for several reasons. First, women today are a lot more educated about sex and a lot more fussy about which men they choose. So, losers, boozers and snoozers are left alone most of the time and have to resort to hookers. Rush Limbaugh, for all his money has to go to foreign shores to get get laid, remember? Secondly, disease has made casual sex a risky business which has even curtailed gay bathhouses, let alone het sex. Since more women today are seeking education over early marriage, while it’ true that those women may seek some sexual relationships, they are still the ones doing the choosing. And, finally, it’s not a matter of bird dog men and women “getting laid”. Women who seek sex do so for reasons of their own. You make it sound like men are the hunters and women the deer. That’s just silly.
Mimi
Madeline, These columns have become too small, so I’m going to step out of this portion of the thread with you having the last word. :)
However, if you leave your mouse over the picture of the beauty pageant chick in my comment, you will see that that *IS* Sarah Palin, hahaha.
Again, I appreciate your contributions to this discussion. :)
“If I were a man I’d find that analogy rather offensive.” – If you were a man you would find your previous statement either humorous or perplexing. You’d also have been thinking about lunch from around 9:30a. But I digress. lol
Guys pursue/queue up and women select. Or don’t select. Agreed. Guess what, guys are still going to queue up regardless until word gets around that the chick digs the attention but it doesn’t go anywhere. Then the queue will taper down to playahs who want to “crack that code”. Hard core dudes who are gonna be in it for the long haul just to say they did it. Now you just went from having a choice to possibly walking into a mousetrap. Some dude’s about to tell you EVERYTHING you want to hear. Including how dreadful it is that women have to put up with being sought out by those dirty, slavering, men. Horrid! OK, before you had a choice, now, if you’re not careful, you will be a “victim”. So if you choose not to choose make a point not to go to places where singles mingle. Hey, forewarned is forearmed, and that’s the whole point of Bill’s blog, right? ;-)
Mimi, I’m curious what do you think chivalry is? You think guys were writing songs and throwing roses at women’s feet so they could blend in with the crowd? No, they were actively trying to get picked over and above every other dude! Bear in mind a lot noblemen would NOT have known these women in any kind of social context prior to wooing. All they would know about her is her lineage. Small enough pool of women and you get guys escalating up to poetry and song writing. Isn’t that romantic the way the wolves, or Fabios, snap their teeth and growl at each other while simultaneously strutting around in their peacock finery reciting rhymes about her? I imagine up in your balcony the wind would be blowing the veil from her face just so while she smiled down at the nice gentlemen who were so kind to do these nice things for her. I’m sure from a distance professional football looks like 22 guys playing in the grass on a nice Sunday. It’s always been a contest.
Love, and connection with sex is great. Sex without the other two is, hmmmmm… SEX! The first is a pizza with the works, the second is a pizza. Both are hot and fresh.. can I kill this analogy now? lol
There’s a fantasy that men are just like women except hairier. T’aint true. We are very different and that difference deserves a healthy respect.
Jen Anniston’s dude cheats on her and he ends up with a wife and this huge wonderful polyglot family. Jen has a big house and ex-boyfriend who calls himself a douchebag and says thing like his penis is a racist. I’m fine with that, but most ladies would not call that a win.
FYI – Makeup is for leveling the playing field.
“As to men who wish to “judge” women on their beauty, they are also free to be that shallow.” – I look and it just happens. If I treat you differently because of what I perceive that is quite possibly shallow. Unless I ask the ugly chick to dance because I know nobody else will. I’m not going to be less nice to a less than beautiful woman serving me coffee. That’s just discourteous. I’ve already judged by that time though and maybe if she was prettier my non-verbal communication would be different. It’s not conscious thought and learned behavior. How you gonna intellectualize your way out of something you never even got trained on and do without a second thought? How do you preempt that?
“As to men who wish to “judge” women on their beauty, they are also free to be that shallow.
After all, there are also women who judge men on their wallets…and perhaps the two of them deserve one another.”
there is a HUGE difference between judging on beauty and choosing based on beauty. Personality is important to men as well but the problem is there is now way to see or gauge personality from a distance so then you must first gauge by some thing else and that is what attracts you. there is no way i can tell you have a great personality from across the bar (that’s what e harmony is for) but i can tell if you got a dimple when you smile and then its go time and if she is rolling with a lot of friends then its time to radio for back up (or txt or signal all of which is to be covered in hinters part 2 right bill??)
Steve,
“Chivalry” is not really needed or wanted in a world where women are free and equal. Being polite is more than enough. :-)
As to your suggestion of a “mousetrap” …that’s just claptrap. Pretending that you, and other’s like you, are the big bad wolf just doesn’t play anymore, Steve.
What you call “players” are just little boys who simply grow up some day, before it’s too late, or they end up with mail order brides. It’s just that simple.
Women tend to understand (whether they decide to have recreational sex or not) that all human beings NEED love and companionship, and that players are not worth the time or effort. Women don’t need “training” from the big bad wolf, Steve; they just need to use their own common sense and tell little boys to scratch and sniff.
Mimi
When Shooting The Messenger Goes Wrong
As I stated earlier, and Bill states probably quarterly, he started this blog to steer his friends AWAY from trouble. If none of this resonates with you, at the moment, that’s okey doke. If referring to players with the diminutive, “little boys”, gives you a feeling of superiority or unassailability that helps you get through, that’s cool too. But if you think a player is going to show up anywhere and broadcast he’s a player then you’ve watched too many movies where the bad guy sounds, acts, and just generally gives it away from the first scene. This is a logical fail. IF women could smell players from a mile away, like they all claim, THERE WOULD BE NO PLAYERS. :D
Another thread that’s run out of columns, but I’ll say to Madeline that who is and isn’t a “little boy” is a matter of your own personal opinion and has nothing to do with anything that I’ve posted or the ensuing conversations, which makes it a personal attack.
Personal attacks against other commenters are one of the few things that I delete from my comments, because it’s not fair to them. We can all agree or disagree with each other while remaining on-topic and not attempting to offend each other.
I just wanted to make this clear before I get my edit on. You can look anywhere you want throughout my entire blog and there are ZERO comments against my commenters, though I’ve left some of the comments towards me to remain.
No harm, no foul, and again, I entirely appreciate your contributions to our discussions. :D
Thank You.
~The Management~
I just be myself. I do not understand the competitive nature and would like your opinion. I’m the guy that everyone gets along with and I’m friends with alot of attractive women. Yet I do not understand the dynamics of the dating game. I just believe in my head that if the woman understood that I do not compete, because alot of the vying for attention I see as weak traits.. supplication etc and do not even approach women, unless she understands that I am a man that is worthy of respect as she is.
I don’t compete for a partner… I just do not see the point as I just see that alot of the game in dating is a game and if I have to. I think the best way is just to be yourself and be a strong yet show a soft side of yourself and be friendly and just enjoy yourself.
I go out into the game just knowing that I am a good catch, but really just go out to enjoy my own time,
Being yourself is fine as long as you can get what you want BY being yourself. If your goal is to enjoy your time, as you stated, that’s mainly in your own hands. If you’re not having a good time with a gal, you can just spend time with someone else that you enjoy more, or at least that’s less of a downer than the current chick.
The dynamics of the dating game are the same as any other sport. If you want to win the World Series, you have to become good at playing baseball. Nobody wins the World Series by “being themselves”.
I have met a lot of men that try the dating game and get rejected so many times by women that they start to get a complex. I feel sorry for these men. I have seen a lot of mens self esteem go down hill because they try to conform to trying to impress or be something they are not.
I believe we both have the power to choose or reject a prospect.
Yet I usually do not select off attractiveness. Just how the person is and if we get on together and if the conversation is stimulating.
I think a lot of people these days especially men choose to become a victim in the dating game and then hate women or live in a fantasy world, that if they had more money etc etc, women would find them more attractive.
I think people should just be themselves. I am someone that really does not conform to society much at all am a free thinker, and usually I stick out like a sore thumb.
Like looking at it from a womens perspective society must place so much pressure on these wonderful ladies. That they have to look their best etc etc to attract a mate.
I really do not understand it as I have found society to be pretty shallow and its weird. Don’t you think its crazy we follow all these dating rules?
Just go out and be you, meet someone. I’m happy just enjoying all my female friends company. Its precious enjoying a womans company. What do you think?
If you’re involved in the dating game, you’re definitely going to get complexes. There’s no way around it if you actually care about what’s going on, because you’re MOSTLY going to LOSE. Situations fail way more than they work out, because not everyone’s built to like everyone or BE LIKED by everyone.
If you’re not selecting from attractiveness, you’re a step ahead. Guys with no taste in women have a much larger pool to select from.
You’re right about the fantasy world, or at least detesting women for giving guys such a hard time to hook up with them. :) That’s one reason why it’s important to see dating as a game. That way, you laugh when you would otherwise feel like crying. It’s mostly “Easy Come, Easy Go!” and “HAH!.. That was an interesting situation!” instead of “Can you BELIEVE what this chick just DID?” Eventually, you believe it, expect it and get used to it. Guys that can’t recognize and understand the game often end up bitter and/or depressed.
There’s definitely a lot of pressure on women to have the right look as well as maintaining certain airs or demeanors that may or may not be natural to them. The gal who’s honestly physically attracted to several male acquaintances that know each other can’t do what she wants and kick it to all of them without the fear of being labeled a “ho”. They also have to sift through a bunch of lies to figure out who’s telling them the truth instead of just telling them whatever in order to get them to lay down. it’s definitely a privilege being a guy. I’m pretty sure I’d be mad as hell if I were a chick and had to deal with what they deal with.
Unfortunately, we have to follow dating rules BECAUSE “society is shallow”. I had a conversation with a friend last night and this chick that I’ve never met before that happened to be standing there took offense to something that I said to MY OWN FRIEND! :D I ignored the chick, because it was none of her business, which caused her to get upset at me. Had I been following the rules, I wouldn’t have been talking to my friend as if the other chick wasn’t even there. I would have catered to the other chick’s expectations and only said things in front of her that she liked. I could have easily played that situation properly, but I wouldn’t have been having an authentic conversation with my friend, which was more of interest to me than some new chick liking me for fake reasons. Since guys are going to be excluded from dating consideration for shallow reasons, following the game plan is essential if you want to have the highest probability of success.
“Be you, Meet someone” is nice if you’re someone like you that “doesn’t select women off attractiveness”. If you want attractive women, you have to compete for them because all the other guys are trying to get the same women. You have to defeat guys richer than you, smarter than you, better looking than you, more interested in a relationship than you, that dress better than you, are taller than you….. If you want a chance.. At least in a big city like NYC, you have to be ready & willing to roll with the big dogs or you’re gonna “get peeled” left and right. Once you meet someone by being yourself and then she dumps you to go out with the guy that threw the proper game at her to get her to shut you out, you might think it’s bad luck. When that happens to you several times in a row, you start to get the picture that other guys know something that YOU don’t know and you decide to figure it out and get in the game or remain a back-seat driver in your own love life.
I think you can “be yourself” after you give a woman a compelling reason to select you over some other dude. Every guy’s a nice guy. If you have some characteristics in common with both James Bond and Woody Allen I would definitely be playing up the former initially. You don’t want a woman walking away saying, oh, he’s all righty and would make a great friend. You want to get her all buzzed up and “break me off a piece of that!” about you. It’s too easy to fall into that trap of over committing and showering a woman with attention and not getting a return on investment. If you feel like your carrying the whole convo, step back. If she doesn’t attempt to step up to fill the void then she’s in it for the spotlight or wants you to do ALL the work, niether of which is to your benefit so roll on mah brutha! Yeah, I know, I know, that’s hard to do. LOL
But it’ll reduce the number of times you go home feeling like a chump. Or a chimp. Or friended. And no, there’s nothing wrong with going out and making new friends if that’s all of what you want.
That being said when you meet somebody you really feel you clicked with all night long, there’s STILL only about a 50% chance you’re going to be talking to them again. At least in the NYC area. Bill’s stats may vary. ;-)
Can’t remember where I read this… but I think it captures when things go right: From a man to a woman, “I pursued you until you caught me”.