Unexpected Sex / Just The Way I Planned It

Posted by Bill Cammack On December - 26 - 2009

Bill CammackReader “Gina” asked me a question, which I’ll paraphrase and then talk about:

Gina met a guy on the internet and eventually went on an IRL date with him where their conversation about past history and near-future life goals seemed to be in sync and they both enjoyed the date.

They went out on another couple of dates and progressed to making out. They also went dancing together. After their fourth date, she went to his crib and had what she called “unexpected sex”.

Let’s say she was less than perfectly prepared to give it up that night, hehe. She proceeded to have the normal female “buyer’s remorse” reaction to dropping her drawers faster than she thought she would. The general sex was protected, the oral wasn’t.

Also, the sex Gina received was GAH-BAGE! (as far as HER getting something out of it)

They went on another date and she received the same sex. She’s heading to date #6 with him, but she doesn’t want to be seen as “some chick to have sex with”. She doesn’t want him to take the self-esteem hit of her telling him that he sucks at “poundin’ it out” as the fellaz from MTV’s “Jersey Shore” would say. She’s lightly brought up the topic in the past.

Even with his, er, let’s say sensual inadequacy, she likes this guy and wants to date him exclusively as BF/GF. She’s brought this up to him and he countered perfectly with “Let’s take the time to get to know each other better before making such an important decision”.

Gina’s questions:

1) Do you think he would be offended if I do not want sex from him at all now?
2) Do you think he’s sincere or just wanting to get laid some more?
3) How do I tell him that I’d like for him to get tested at a clinic?

Thanks for the scenario/question, Gina. Don’t feel like the “odd woman out”, because there are a bunch of TYPICAL issues that women have to face that you’re dealing with right now. I’ll give you some opinions on them, but be aware and clear that I don’t know either one of you so it’s possible that nothing I have to say here actually applies to your current situation.

Unexpected Sex

First of all.. There’s no such thing as “Unexpected Sex” from the guy’s side of things. If he’s talking to you at all, as far as hanging out or dating, he wants to have sex with you. Period. It’s not a matter of “IF”. It’s a matter of “WHEN?” or how long will it take to get on or how much work does he have to put in or how much money does he have to shell out or how many “sweet nothings” does he have to whisper in your ear. Like, if he says “Hold the elevator!!! :O” or “Does this train go to the Upper East Side?” then he MIIIIIGHT not want to have sex with you, but anything more than that and he’s scheming to get some.

So by the time you took your relationship from online to IRL, it was merely a countdown until he got some. Not this time… Not this time… Not this time… OH! There it is! :D

It’s pretty typical that you gave it up on the fourth date because there seems to have been some kind of Women’s National Meeting where the king woman decided that if a gal gives it up in fewer than three dates she’s a ho, but anything after that, she “held out” for the proper amount of time. Nothing to feel badly about.. I’m just saying that most guys EXPECT the chick to give it up AFTER three dates have gone by.. Meaning we know that you’re going to relax your Adductor muscles (AND, most likely, your Gluteus Maximus) as soon as YOU feel like you’ve passed your own test in your head for not being “easy”. So don’t worry about him thinking that you’re easy because you have “unexpected sex” with him. He expected you to give it up sooner or later before you ever physically met him. It’s no big deal.

Making Out & Dancing

It’s not a problem that you like to make out with him and get your Lambada on. That’s partially because while you were trying to play the “just a friend” role, he always expected to get some from you as I explained above. Also, making out can be an end and not a means. Some people enjoy making out with each other, dancing close, getting all hot & bothered and then going their separate ways for the evening.

So, again, you weren’t making yourself look easy or like you “wanted more” by doing what came naturally to you with him. Having said that, you don’t want to do that with just anybody, because there are lots of guys that won’t take “no” for an answer and will take unfair advantage of the situation. In this case, you were already dating the guy, there was no “just friends” about it for him, EVER, regardless of what you were thinking or planning and like I said, we expect y’all to “come online” sexually sooner or later, whether we push you there or you get there on your own. No big deal.

Not Prepared For Sex

This is actually a good thing and a bad thing at the same time haha :D Now, I know some friends of mine over @ BlogHer.com will want to complain about this, but here in America, The United States, guys fully expect women’s legs to be SHAVEN! :D hahaha omg.. I’m not talking about bikini waxes, etc, I mean what would normally be showing if you suddenly threw on a miniskirt & heels. If this area is Chewbacca-down, you are *NOT* prepared for sex! :D .. In fact, you MIGHT be prepared for dude to pull your pants back up, zip and button them for you, give you a bus token and say SHALOM! :D

The good thing about this is that you OBVIOUSLY weren’t prepared OR expecting to get laid. That’s going to get you points with guys that like to feel like they did something special by getting a gal to give it up. Unfortunately, this could also backfire on you if he thinks this is your normal state of disrepair OR if he thinks YOU THINK your legs looking like that is cool. :/

I had this situation happen to me once… The chick being unprepared, of course… Not The Kid! :D My first reaction was one of those unintentional spurts of laughter that sounds like a snort or maybe a sneeze. I quickly suppressed my laughter to a rapid-fire series of silent breaths so as not to NOT GET what I was about to GET! :D HAHAHA So weird-looking! :) I didn’t really have any “feelings” about it, but I guess my thoughts were that she hadn’t expected to give me some, because she knew she was going to be going out with me and had had time to hook herself up.. which is a bad thing….. except she still gave it up, just the way I planned it, so it was actually a tactical win for The Kid because I made something out of nothing.

Having said that.. That situation used up her Get Out Of Jail Free card. Had she “got caught slippin'” again in the future, that could very well have been grounds for excommunication. :D

~ Bill Cammack | @BillCammack

Continued below, in the comments [Click Here to read]“…

51 Responses to “Unexpected Sex / Just The Way I Planned It”

  1. fishingrod says:

    “Also, the sex Gina received was GAH-BAGE! (as far as HER getting something out of it) ”

    This is not the only reason why I don`t see any value in One-Night-Stands, but it is one of the most important reasons.

    I understand the value ONS have for guys. Guys are easy to handle. There might be differences in quality, but in principle, anyone can make them come. A stupid girl could do it. A completely drunk girl could do it. Heck, even a robot could. They always get something out of it.

    For us women, it is an entirely different story. There are important questions to consider before having a ONS:
    a) Will he behave like an egocentric asshole and only think about his own pleasure, or will he take time for her’s too?
    b) If he cares enough to take care of her, does he have the necessary skills to make it happen?
    c) If he does not have the skills, will he at least be able and willing to listen and learn, or will his ego be so deflated as soon she tells him that his performance does not do it for her that he calls the whole thing off?
    d) Does he have any non-orgasm-related skills in bed? (And I am not talking about holding hands and cuddling here.) A friend in college once told me that she had been in a relationship with a guy who was addicted to gambling. He would even steal her money to do it. I asked her why she put up with that crap for so long before she finally broke up with him. She only said: “He had the magic touch.” And I understood. There are so few guys out there who have that. So very few, it is sad….

    • Bill Cammack says:

      Cain’t argue wit’ nonea dat right thurrrrrr! :D hahaha

      Yeah, that’s what makes it tough for guys. So many guys put in poor performances during ONS for the exact reasons you state. Either they don’t care so long as they get off, they don’t know what they’re doing, they don’t care enough to learn or accept constructive criticism…

      I’ll be getting to that in part 2 of this article, but since you brought it up, it’s very clear that if this happens to a gal one time, it could be an error or he wasn’t prepared or he was too drunk or he wasn’t drunk enough or whatever the case might have been, but more than once and it’s clear that he’s not putting his best effort in to please her or even FIGURE OUT if she felt good about the sex or not.

      Fortunately for him, women will still date men if the guy’s sex is HORRIFIC or even non-existent. It doesn’t work so easily in the other direction.

      As far as (d), It’s not only the magic touch, but everything about the way you relate to a woman. Mostly, that comes from how you feel about her, even though some of it’s easily improvised/feigned. I find that the more I’m inspired by a woman’s way of being, the more I can naturally be for her because I feel completely differently around her and things make perfect sense to me that they wouldn’t otherwise.

      Also, there’s a difference between having a DELIBERATE one night stand and the circumstances turning out that you never hit it, er… made love to her ever again! ;)

      • fishingrod says:

        “As far as (d), It’s not only the magic touch, but everything about the way you relate to a woman. Mostly, that comes from how you feel about her, even though some of it’s easily improvised/feigned.”

        So …. which part can be easily improvised/feigned, and which part has to be genuine? Care to share with the unenlightened?

        • Bill Cammack says:

          Here’s what I mean..

          I’m leaving a party with a friend of mine a while back and there’s a flight of steps we had to get down to get to the street. I got to the bottom before she did and when I turned around, she was coming down rather slowly. In my mind’s eye, I saw her bussin’ her ass and tumbling down the steps. I *REEEEEEEALLY* didn’t want that to happen, because she’s a great person, so I hustled back up the steps and took her arm just in case.

          I proceeded to ignore her protests that she could walk down the steps by herself just fine, because her bussin’ her ass wasn’t acceptable AT. ALL. This is because I *NATURALLY* started to feel badly when I considered that possibility and took what I considered to be the proper steps to make as sure as possible that she didn’t hurt herself.

          OTOH.. I might have been with a different gal and never turned around at all to see whether she made it down the steps or not. In that situation, I might FEIGN interest in her well-being and offer her the same treatment I naturally (and NECESSARILY) offered the woman that inspires me to be that type of person for her. This might be for some tactical reason like trying to get points for chivalry that I might be able to cash in later in the evening.

          So it’s applying what one learns naturally to a situation that doesn’t inspire that type of treatment. This same style can be applied to interacting with women. Once you know how it feels to be INSPIRED by a woman to touch her in a certain way, speak to her in a certain way, look at her in a certain way, kiss her in a certain way, etc, you can utilize those same styles tactically if you so choose.

    • Frank says:

      As for the sex she recieved being wack… Its dudes like this that make getting it off and happening hard on the rest of us. Call me full of shyt, big headed, conceited, call me whatever you want BUT dont call me or mine gah-bage!! I treat a ONS like its the most important thing in the world! Why? Because bragging about a ONS is not where its at… bragging about getting called over for a SECOND go round IS! Actually I dont care if you invite me over, so long as you THOUGHT about bring my good shyt back Im OK!

      So to answer the above questions (from my personal stand point)

      a) I always bring my A game to a one nighter.
      b) Yes i do.
      c) I always ask if theres anything you want.
      d) ??Non orgasm skills in bed?? Like what? I’ve personally been known to stop smack in the middle right as it/she was gonna happen and…tell a joke!! lol

      As for the unexpected sex…

      • Frank says:

        oh and for the record… I dont feign to know everything it takes. I just love the smell of woman and the act of sex so much that…

        • Bill Cammack says:

          Yes. Thank you for articulating what I was trying to say better than I did. My point was that with dudes like this, akkin’ like “it ain’t no thang” to put in approximately ZERO WORK on a chick in a ONS, they’re making it harder for the rest of us to convince gals that they should lay the **** down! :D

          I don’t know how many times I’ve had to listen to chicks tell me they “had sex” with some Herb dude they’re dating that I know DAMNED ******* WELL isn’t putting in any work on them and the chicks may as well be classified as virgins as far as I’m concerned. THEN, they turn around to me and say stuff like “Sex is no big deal. I could take it or leave it”.. Um.. OF COURSE YOU CAN with the dude that has his hands on you! It’s completely ridiculous. It’s like because they can beat their man at tennis they think they can challenge Agassi. Your. Man. Isn’t. Putting. In. Any. Work.. Stop. Acting. Like. You. Know. What. Sex. Is. About…

          If I’m in that mood where I don’t feel like I’m gonna be able to bring the ruckus, I’ll definitely bail out and live to fight another day.. YA HEARD??? :D

  2. Gina says:

    Hi, Gina here :-) I’ve read both comments and it makes sense. It was NOT a one night stand though…I’ve been seeing him ever since the first incident, just saw him again yesterday and unfortunately, sex was lackluster lol. I once again mentioned nicely to him that he should “really try and last longer” and he mentioned that he will try his best and that in the meantime he can buy an attachable toy to do me with, I declined, just seems too weird…but he is at least acknowledging his “problem.” He gets off, I do sometimes when he eats me out :-P So he does in a way make up for his inadequacy by performing good oral sex.

    He’s a really cool guy though. I mean I’ve enjoyed every moment we’ve spent together. At least he knows that this relationship isn’t based on sex ha. He goes out of his way to make sure I’m happy…recently celebrated my birthday together, yesterday he cooked dinner for me, on Christmas we went to see a play/dinner then he gave me a cute gift, he’s really trying to be a nice guy and that’s what has won me over…although sex is important in a relationship I can overlook that bad aspect of it for now b/c of his great personality… I’ll continue to see him. Maybe even suggest he sees a doctor for his problem?? Because this cannot be normal. Again, thank you Bill. You’ve really been helpful. I appreciate it!

  3. Gina says:

    Oh, wanted to clarify…I mentioned his good traits because I was really considering dumping him last night in person. It was really bothering me….I almost did break it off but then decided against it…he’s too much of a nice guy; last thing I want to do is hurt his ego. I’m such a mush for sweet guys. I wasn’t too sure of him before but he’s proven to be genuine and caring. Oh well. I’ll stick around for a bit and suggest he sees a doctor. We’ll see how that goes.

  4. Frank says:

    I AGREE with Sir Bill Cammack… THERE IS NO UN in EXPECTED! True to form, from the minute I asked you what time it was, how do get there/do you know where this is, blahblahblah… I wanted to tap that. How ever long it took to get you on that first outing, best believe that during that whole process I wanted to tap that. From the very second you laughed at my semi off color joke, I wanted to tap that. Whats my proof…

    I carried the same condom(s) everytime i saw you (ok maybe had to replenish, didnt say you were the only one i wanted to get with). I carried the same wipes with me, wanted to make sure i smell fresh before and after (and I mean for wiping down my face, neck, and other parts). Theres a whole process that we/men/I go through and all of it leads to ALWAYS being prepared. I could be sitting at a table having drinks with Bill, Steve and some of their friends WHILE being in a semi depressed mood because the health of a close family memeber is in question…AND STILL HAVE ALL THE ABOVE IN MY POCKET! (winkwink…)

    and as for the medical clearance part… If you kissed and blessed him AND were fortunate enough to have him bless you in return, maybe its time you got yourself checked. At this point its kinda late in the game! Saliva and body fluids… whatever YOU had he got and whatever HE had you got!

  5. Soulpowr says:

    I’m still stuck on why she wants to date this guy exclusively and the sex is GAHBAGE?

    • Frank says:

      Its probably a female thing… (and no im not being funny).

      I know more women/girls who turn a bad first impression into a possible LTR and yet MOST (and im saying most not all) men/boys will say something to the effect of “nah, she wasnt that great” in response to will you call her again.

      I wish i wasnt shallow enough to say if the sex sucks Im out but I like sex too much.

      As for the telling him to go see a doctor… that could backfire. If his ability was ok until now, then he might question her “experience” in regards to what more can she want. Instead of telling him to go see a doctor maybe she should just get in sync with his personal vibe and help him avoid the big finish!

      • Bill Cammack says:

        It’s *DEFINITELY* a female thing.

        Just like you said, if a chick doesn’t produce or the ish was “meh”, she goes to the bottom of the totem pole if she doesn’t get booted off the roster entirely.

        It doesn’t work that way with women because they thrive off of attention from the right man, not good sex. Sure, you can lock a chick down with sex, but you can get all the same benefits from being someone they like to spend time with.

        From the guys’ side, it goes “She’s nice to spend time with, so I’ll go to dinner with her and then drop her back where I got her so I can get to the REAL action”. Now that we mentioned this topic, this is one of the reasons a lot of women don’t realize they’re sharing their man. They’re like “I see him every day” or “We have sex once a week” or whatever it is and they don’t realize that as soon as that guy’s outside her door and around the corner, he’s on the cell with the next chick or hopping in her ride because he told her when and where to pick him up after he, uh.. finished doing laundry. :D

  6. Bill Cammack says:

    Since y’all continued the conversation here, I’ll pick up where I left off talking about Gina’s situation on the original post.

    Frank already hit the nail on the head that half-safe doesn’t equal SAFE when it comes to exchanging bodily fluids. Is there LESS chance of catching something? As far as I know, yes there is. Unfortunately, that means there still *IS* a chance.

    As far as the sex being GARBAGE, not once and not even only TWICE! (which is unacceptable to begin with), you have to realize that you set a precedent when you received trash and came back for more… and received more trash. :D .. Basically, as long as dude’s enjoying being a two-minute brotha at your expense, he’s gonna keep on doing it. I don’t think you can look forward to any marathon sessions with this guy in your relationship future with him. Being nice and saying “Maybe you should see the doctor” isn’t going to have any effect either, hahaha. Also.. Apparrently, you missed the Dave Chappelle routine: *NSFW*

    As far as his self-esteem, if it was one time, I’d tell you “Good Lookin’ Out” for not bringing it up…. SEVERAL TIMES???.. He doesn’t actually deserve to *HAVE* any self-esteem. He’s either doing that to you deliberately or he just doesn’t care enough to change the situation. As you mentioned in the comments, he definitely gets credit for finding other ways to finish you off, AT LEAST, but yeah, he’s just displaying some downright discourteous behavior in the bedroom. :)

    As far as being seen as “Some chick to have sex with”, that’s going to depend on your personality. If he’s having as good a time hanging out with you as you’re telling us you’re having with him, you might get a title from him someday. You’re definitely *A* chick to have sex with, there’s no way out of that one for you, but that doesn’t have to come with some sort of demeaning status. It’s just a fact of his ongoing interactions with you that he usually gets some.

    As far as your still being interested in dating him exclusively, haha I’m with Soulpowr on that one… \o/

    Now, for your questions:

    “Would he be offended if you didn’t want sex from him at all now?”.. No. He wouldn’t be offended. You’d also probably never see him again. :) Dude knows he’s the trashman. If what you’re getting off on is the dessert, you may as well skip the main meal.. Ya FEEL ME? :D haha At this point, dude owes you a few favors to get back in your good graces as far as that PING, PING, *PING*, RICOCHET RABBIT! ish he’s been getting away with in the sack. :D

    “Do I think he’s sincere?”.. Yes. It seems like he is. Sincere about WHAT?.. I don’t know. The thing is that if a dude doesn’t like a chick’s sex he doesn’t have to go back for another round. He also doesn’t have to spend fun times with her, because who cares? So the fact that he’s, um… sexually interacted with you on several occasions AND is hanging out with you in between those times and you’re having a good time with him, it seems like he actually likes you as a person, if that’s what “sincere” means.

    “How do you tell him to get tested?”.. Close your legs, (or your mouth.. or whatever…) and let him know that you’re not comfortable with messing with him again until he gets tested.

    Having said that, unless technology’s advanced, I believe it takes two weeks to find out test results and you’d also have to be sure that he got all the tests done, at least one of which is rather uncomfortable, so I’m sure a lot of guys skip getting it (don’t bother asking what it is, I’m not even going to describe it! :D). On top of that, there’s stuff that could lay dormant for a long time and then not show up on the test. On top of that, the test is only as valid as the day he took it so if he hits up the whorehouse and then shows you a clean bill of health, you’re short.

    Unfortunately, the best way to be the most assured that you don’t catch something from someone is if you’re SURE that they care about you enough not to pass you anything.. Which would mean that they were getting themselves tested and informing you of the results on their own or as soon as you requested the information. That also depends on your ability to judge character, which a lot of us feel we can do better than we actually can.

    Anyway, good luck with the situation. Hope it all works out! :D

    ~Bill

    • Gina says:

      Hi, right after posting my responses above this morning, I re-read what I wrote and wanted to slap myself silly. Literally. I realized how pathetic I was being. However, I do like him but not enough to let him get away with this; therefore, I ended things with him earlier today. I was a punk and sent him a text message lol. I know that’s not the right way to do things but I did not want to hear his voice or see him in person. He’s called me a few times after this and has left a few messages on my voicemail asking to make this work and knows that the sex was the cause of the breakup…No sh!t Einstein.

      To be honest with you, the real reason I was trying to make something out of nothing with this man is because I felt “guilty” for sleeping with him, especially after I was celibate for this long. I felt ‘weak’ for letting some guy get the best of me…as I believe you called the “buyer’s remorse.” Lol. I felt the need to be in a relationship w/ him only b/c we had sex and I felt that I already gave up a lot…clearly my logic is screwed up (blame this on being brought up in a super religious household). Anyway, I’m feeling a lot better having ended this. It was a mess!

      But man, you really brought things into perspective. Thanks for your honest answer. Take care!

      -Gina

      • Bill Cammack says:

        Hey Gina. :)

        First of all, you’re welcome. :)

        Second, what you’ve written here is pretty incredible and it’s really a shining example of one of the reasons I write my dating blog. Thank you for sharing that. I would call what just occurred for you a “breakthrough”.

        A breakthrough is basically when you step outside of who you THINK you are and get closer to who you REALLY are and you’re able to see ways of being that aren’t natural to you or ways of being or mindsets that you COULD have changed at any time, except you didn’t know you had the power to change them.

        We could have talked about your situation forever and NEVER arrived at your second paragraph, because that’s a personal way that you were feeling and it’s possible that even *YOU* didn’t notice it until you did the exercise of a) writing your situation and reading it back to yourself and b) sharing enough of your situation with others to be able to receive heartfelt feedback and test your own way of thinking. It was up to YOU to receive the feedback, bounce it around in your mind and come to one or several conclusions. Those conclusions could have been shallow, such as “I’m not going to look like a laughing stock, constantly getting shorted on sex like it ain’t no thang”, which wouldn’t have helped you at all, because the next guy you did this with, you’d be in the exact same mental boat.

        Instead, you went for (and shared) the deeper revelation that you got caught in a brainwashing cycle. Thanks again for sharing that, because I think it’s important for women to read about because it’s a simple and common tactic of control that lots of women fall for but never realize or do anything about because it’s so deeply ingrained.

        Women tend to reverse-engineer sexual situations exactly in the way you described, for exactly the reason you described. There is So. Much. Pressure. on women not to have sex that they want to have ‘for the sake of having it’ that it jacks y’all’s heads up. *IF* you end up getting into a situation where you’re just feelin’ some guy and give it up, the wheels start turning on how y’all can spin this into the beginning of a relationship as opposed to your just “getting some” because you were turned on because that would make you a HO, and “Good girls don’t blahblahblah”. In order to see yourself as a “good girl”, you had to be giving it up as a component of a larger relationship… Thus, your clinging to this guy.

        There’s no room in the American woman’s life for “I just thought that guy was hot and wanted to hook up with him”. It’s not offered to you. This is a patriarchal society, even though they’re trying to turn all the guys into women. They might not paint a red letter “A” on you or stone you to death for adultery, but the mental pressures are all there to make you feel exactly the way you said you felt. Otherwise, women would hook up with ANYBODY they felt like and there would be no way to prove paternity = decline of society or at least diminishment of male power. No way to prove bloodline, pass down fortunes, retain family name and control…

        This is how someone named Gina in the year 2009 ends up feeling guilty for doing what she wanted to do with her own body as a grown-ass-woman. :D Let me tell you something.. One of the most powerful (meaning sexually and personality-wise, not money and political power) women I know essentially made a name for herself from screwing “taken” men. She saw a guy she wanted to hook up with, he was in a relationship or married, she didn’t give a ****, she did what she wanted to do with the guy and it was found out or it wasn’t. That was back when she was single. Now, she’s married with children. If she had fallen prey to the same brainwashing/guilt you’re describing, her life would have been an entirely different journey. She STILL ended up where a lot of women who go the “good girl” route never make it to… A stable household environment with a man that loves her and their kids.

        So, yeah, don’t feel alone in this situation. Lots of chicks go down that “buyer’s remorse” cycle for the exact same reasons. I’ve had it happen to me. I’ve told chicks straight that I’m not into relationships, explained it to them fully, F2F, understood that they understood what I was saying, hooked up with them thinking that we’d remain regular friends that shared a sexual experience, and next thing you know, they’re trying to date The Kid. :/ Everything we discussed beforehand went right out the window. Same exact deal… “I gave him some, so we should have more of a girlfriend/boyfriend relationship now”. UGH. I avoid this like the plague.

        Again, because of societal brainwashing, I understand this sounds backwards, but if a chick takes her body too seriously, I’m outta there. FuhGEDDABOUDDIT. If hooking up with you means that all of a sudden, you think we have some kind of cosmic connection outside of I was attracted to you and you were attracted to me and we had a good time together, I’ll pass.. GLADLY. You have no idea how much of an energy drain it is to get rid of a chick that’s jocking you because YOU let her run all over creation with her fantasies surrounding hooking up. There are too many chicks that are just like “I like him and I wonder what it would be like to be with him…” to bother with chicks that can’t or won’t stop themselves from making more out of a situation than it really is.

        The key for you in this situation, Gina, isn’t what you “gave up”, but rather what you GOT. Women aren’t programmed to see sex as something they wanted and made happen for their own horny reasons. Y’all are brainwashed into the victim role, always having things TAKEN from you. This is why it’s imperative for gals to make guys pay, monetarily or emotionally for what they’re getting from you. Meanwhile.. You WANTED the guy to have sex with you and you got what you wanted (although only for about 75 seconds at a time). You WANTED the guy to spend time with you and go places and be nice to you and you got what you wanted. So, while I agree with your decision to stop hooking up with him to get wack sex, you may or may not be able to be “just friends” with him and still share good times together, assuming he’s feelin’ you like that.

        There’s no reason to fall for the second format of brainwashing, which is that you have to throw the entire relationship out if there’s a portion of it you don’t want to deal with. There’s also no reason to feel badly about having him be lame in the sack several times. :) At this point, you’re on top of the entire game! :D You know what you like about him. You know why you were letting him get away with weak sex. You know what you’re looking for as far as relationships or friendships. You’re completely in the power position because you have a way better and more congruent grasp on your mentality, AND you’ve achieved ‘overwatch’ on the entire playing field.

        That’s why what you shared is so important. :) Frank & I don’t comment on y’all’s situations to go (pardon my French for a sec) “Nah Nah Nuh Nah Nah, look at y’all bitches goin’ out like SUCKERS! HAHAHA :D”. It’s entirely the opposite. All this stuff that’s happening to y’all (minus the two-minute brother action, because that’s obviously bad business and shouldn’t be part of ANY dude’s repertoire because whatever chick you hook up with is going to have GIRLFRIENDS that she’s gonna blab to about your lack of performance in the squared circle) is stuff I’ve personally been doing to women for years and years and years, ad nauseum. *yawn* Y’all always fell for it and always will UNLESS y’all start getting your minds right and seeing clearly how brainwashing like “Good Girls only have sex with guys they’re in relationships with” sells you down the river every time. All I want y’all to do is WAKE UP!!! :D

        It’s not even sex that starts the brainwashing cycle. It starts all the way back at the first look. “He caught me looking at him too long, he knows I like him”. “I gave him my number, let me not look easy by giving it up before the fourth date”. “I went on a date with him, let me not look easy by kissing him goodnight”. “I kissed him goodnight, let me not look easy by giving him some right now, even though I really want to and I’m gonna go inside and take care of my own business while thinking about him”. “I gave him some, let me not look easy and make sure this is part of a relationship”… *YAWN* It’s all formula. Y’all have no idea how easy it is to start the process and then just wait it out until she finally gives it up = No Unexpected Sex.

        If you can get her to go out with you, she’ll dance with you.. If you can dance with her, you can rub it on her.. If you can rub it on her, she’ll feel it.. If she can feel it, she’ll grab it.. If she grabs it, she’ll look at it.. If she looks at it, she’ll lick it….. Formula.

        The more y’all realize how you’ve been set up from when you were a baby and given dolls and ovens to “play” with, getting you ready to be some guy’s wife and raise his kids and cook and clean for him, the more you’ll recognize the playing field for what it is and be able to make educated decisions and live better lives.

        That’s why your breakthrough is so incredibly important. Breaking up with him for no reason wouldn’t have assisted you at all going forward. You would have fallen in the same trap with the next guy you decided to give some to (or, as I stated above.. GET SOME *FROM*, Ya Heard?). Now, through your own introspection, you’ve recognized that you were trying to make ‘giving it up’ respectable in your own eyes because of brainwashing you received and accepted, until RIGHT NOW! :D That’s over now and you can make up your own mind about what YOU feel about hooking up with a guy that YOU like and think is sexy.

        And That’s The Bottom Line……. ‘Cause STONE. COLD. *SAID*. SO!!! :D

        • fishingrod says:

          “One of the most powerful (meaning sexually and personality-wise, not money and political power) women I know essentially made a name for herself from screwing “taken” men. She saw a guy she wanted to hook up with, he was in a relationship or married, she didn’t give a ****, she did what she wanted to do with the guy and it was found out or it wasn’t.”

          That is not powerful, it is selfish and thoughtless. I absolutely agree with you, Bill, that women should not perceive themselves as victims, and that they should not be called sluts just because they enjoy sex outside of marriage or outside of relationships. I hate the double standard as much as you do. But I also firmly believe that the Dalai Lama has a point when he says:
          “If you can, help others; if you cannot do that, at least do not harm them.”

          More than 10 years ago, after a really bad break-up, I felt too damaged and angry to get into a relationship, I just did not want to be responsible for anything or anyone. But I wanted to have sex, just for the sake of sex and to overwrite the experience with my ex. So I found someone in the exact same situation, and boy, did we overwrite it. We had great chemistry and a lot of fun together, but I made sure that nobody got hurt by what we did except maybe the two of us. :-) There will always be assholes out there who cheat on their wives and girlfriends. But I’ll be damned if I lend them a helping hand.

          Even though I agree with the Dalai Lama that we should avoid harming others, I believe sometimes it is inevitable that we hurt others. We all have just this one life and want to make the best of it, so sometimes we need to make tough decisions. Gina needed to get out of this relationship that she started for the wrong reasons, and that is absolutely okay. That the guy would get hurt by her decision is inevitable.
          But Gina:
          That you broke up with him by sending a text message, just because you “did not want to hear his voice or see him in person”, that caused unnecessary hurt. I am sure this guy did not pretend to be a “two-minute-brotha” to make fun of you or to deny you something. You can go find another guy and have the kind of sex with him you want to have. He will carry the problem with him whereever he goes. Don’t you see that you have it so much better? A little compassion and the willingness to acknowledge his feelings would have been appropriate here, even if it is uncomfortable for you. You have every right to rebel against your overly religious upbringing and find your own balance in life. But he or other guys you might meet in the future are not responsible for your past, and you should not take it out on them.

          One last remark to you, Bill: Don’t you think that by using the term “giving it up” over and over in your blog, you reinforce the very image of women as victims that you claim to fight?

          • Bill Cammack says:

            I was going to wait for Gina’s response, but since you addressed me twice in your comment, I’ll go ahead. :)

            “That is not powerful, it is selfish and thoughtless.”

            Unfortunately, that’s not a valid statement. “Selfish” and/or “thoughtless” doesn’t negate “powerful”. Example: Hitler.

            I agree with the rest of your comment surrounding that statement and I personally subscribe to a win-win theory. The best combination is when both people involved can get as much of what they want as possible. As many mutual pros as possible without cons. Once we switch over into cons, we’re talking about people making concessions and building up animosities towards each other because they’re doing things they don’t want to do so someone else can feel happy.

            There’s lots of stuff that I don’t do and that I haven’t done in order to facilitate someone else’s happiness in a win-win situation. It’s frustrating, but it’s honestly the best way to go, because I can absorb disappointment and wasted opportunities way better than most people. I’d rather take that burden on myself than place it on the shoulders of people that aren’t going to be able to cope if we go the route that satisfies me and leaves them without what THEY really want.

            Admittedly, I used an “over the top” example to try to make my point to Gina. I wanted to go past saying “You can do what you want, because it’s your life” and use an example of “There are women that would be called every name in the book because of their past behavior that currently have exactly what you’re trying to get. You don’t have to take the ‘good girl’ route if that’s not in your actual nature”. I wasn’t attempting to glorify the fact that she made easy pickin’s of other women’s men. :) I agree that ethically, she SHOULD have looked for single guys, but then again, taking other people’s property might have been what turned her on the most, so hooking up with available guys would have been “meh”. Dunno.

            Thank you for sharing about gettin’ it on with your ex (or boytoy or whatever you consider him at this point, haha). Adds color to your profile. You’re not a Puritan after all! :D haha Play On, Playette! ;)

            As far as the term “giving it up”, haha you’re absolutely right that I’m reinforcing the image of women as victims….

            This entire BLOG reinforces the image of women as victims! :D That’s the ENTIRE POINT! :D Y’all ARE victims! *WE* are coming after you. WE are going to get you, as usual.. UNLESS you open your eyes and see that we ARE coming after you and educate yourselves against what we’re doing to you.

            Using the term “giving it up” is part of my attempt to express how y’all are normally talked about by the types of guys that are going to be coming after you. Nobody says “Hey.. Did you get to make love to that woman you left the club with last night?”, haha They say “Did you get it?”, “Did you hit it?”, “Did she give it up?”. Using flowery substitutions for sex would actually be doing women a disservice and perpetuating the myth that guys screw y’all because they love you as opposed to being sexually aroused by you.

            Women are definitely and entirely victims. I’ve been writing this blog for more than two years now and I have not written *ONE* article explaining what GUYS have to watch out for when WOMEN are trying to lure them into having sex. :) Not ONE!.. That’s because there’s no such thing. Unless a chick’s busted (or he’s committed himself to a girlfriend or wife or whatever), guys WANT women to come on to them. That’s what we go out the door HOPING will happen today! :) .. It’s WOMEN that rarely see The Game for what it is and keep getting caught up in these psychological traps.

            So, yeah, I use actual terms like “hit it” and “giving it up” because nobody else is going to. The guys that are planning to put your leg up on the counter and **** your brains out will all TELL YOU they want to “make love” to you in order to get you to GIVE IT UP faster… Think about it. ;)

            • fishingrod says:

              Me, a Puritan? Certainly not. :-) Let`s not forget that I was not born and raised in the USA, where at least half the population has serious issues with sex and nudity etc. Here in Europe, we don`t make movies that show people wrap their blankets around themselves before they get out of bed after having sex. Please tell me that you don`t do that IRL. Or do you? ;-)

              The guy I mentioned, I don`t consider him my ex because we never had a relationship. I don`t see him as a boytoy either, because I try not to think of other people as toys, tools or means to an end. We helped each other work through our grief and anger and have some fun at the same time…

              It was the one time in my life (so far) when it was okay for me to have sex outside of a relationship, because I was not in the right state of mind to form an attachment back then. But normally, this is what I do. It is the way I am, and I am aware of that ever since I read “The Art of Loving” as a teenager. To connect with another human being on the deepest possible level and help each other achieve personal growth until our time on this planet is up is – for me – the biggest adventure there is. My personal bungee jump.

              That is why I consider ONS a waste of my time. It is akin to scratching the icing off a cake, and before you come to what I consider “the good part”, you move on to the next cake. But if some people happen to like the icing best: hey, more power to them as long as nobody gets hurt.

              We all basically operate on two principles: Seek pleasure / avoid pain. Some people experience long-term attachment to another person as very rewarding, so they will seek this kind of pleasure whenever possible. Others don`t get the same feeling of reward out of it, so they choose a different path.

              Regarding your Hitler comment: You are right, he was powerful in the sense that he had the power to get millions of people killed. But he was also a complex-ridden man with little self-awareness who made decisions that were tactically wrong, and at the end his only way out was suicide. Not a very powerful position. I just wish he would have killed himself sooner, so others could have lived.

              • Bill Cammack says:

                My point about Hitler was that the opposite of “powerful” is simply “powerLESS”. “Selfish” and “Thoughtless” have NOTHING to do with how much power one has or doesn’t have. I know you get that.. Just wanted to clarify.

                Covering up after sex is retarded unless of course you were slumming and you don’t want to be reminded of what the chick you just hooked up with looks like. :)

                Sex with the lights off is just as stupid. If I wanted to forget what a chick looked like, what’s the point of selecting her in the first place? O_o

                I see your point about the boytoy comment. You had a legitimate yet non-traditional relationship to him during that point in time.

                The “connect with another Human being” statement is really a good one. However, that concept’s been co-opted and people attempt to apply it to only one person instead of EVERYONE that you feel inspired to be that type of person for. This is one of the things I find ridiculous about dating/relationships. You’re supposed to be inspired by ONE person and completely uninspired by everyone else. It’s normally not the truth. I can understand the situations where someone actually “falls in love” with another person and they’re only physically interested in that person, but the tendency is to low-rate anything that’s not offered exclusively, which is extremely retarded as well as entirely standard across the board. The concept “If you really loved me, you wouldn’t love her as well” is full of ****.

                • fishingrod says:

                  Of course it is possible to feel inspired to form a special connection to more than one person. But that does not mean it is retarded “to low-rate anything that’s not offered exclusively”. This is low-rated for a very good reason: It is a lesser thing. If you have ONE girlfriend, all the time that is not filled with work, sleep, working out, enjoying your hobbies, spending time with friends (male and female) or enjoying solitude is hers. If you have TWO girlfriends, this time has to be shared. With three, the piece of the cake gets even smaller.

                  I know that – due to the nature of your job – you don`t need to work so many hours per week to pay your bills, but most people need to work the regular 40 hours or more to achieve that. That does not leave too much time. Add kids to the mix, and it becomes a real challenge to find the time to not be just parents, but lovers as well. That is why so many couples break up within a year after their first child is born. They lose the connection. It takes a lot of conscious effort and time to keep it alive in the hassle of our daily routines.

                  A friend of mine lives with two men. One is her husband who lives in the same house with her, the other lives in the same street and is the biological father of her two children. The kids are raised with two fathers. All people involved seem to be happy with this arrangement, and I have no moral objections. But when I see how the three adults treat each other and how they define themselves, I notice that the degree of intimacy they share is somewhat lower than in most marriages I know that consist of only 2 people. It is as if they are more stand-alone entities…., which is not bad. It is just not what I and probably a lot of others want from a relationship.

                  The other day, I found this text:
                  http://www.emandlo.com/2009/10/when-your-booty-call-wants-to-spoon/
                  and really liked how the conclusion was phrased:
                  “You shall know the Free Trial Citizens by the trail of broken hearts they leave behind, by the ease and aloofness with which they perform PDA, by the days and days they can go without needing to see your face or bury their own in the crook of your neck — and you shall avoid them like the plague (or at least herpes).”

                  How many times per day would you be available for someone who wants to bury their face in the crook of your neck, Bill? How many times if you had 1 girlfriend? How many times with 2, 3 or 4? And how many days can you go without ever thinking about doing that?
                  That is why it’s low-rated.

                • steve says:

                  Huh? So the legitimate affection you may feel towards more than one should be low rated because it’s not what? A sufficient volume of affection display? Somebody better go tell all those long distance relationship folks that they’re just faking it. This isn’t to be confused with people who have poor bonding abilities and are questing for affection.

  7. Frank says:

    This may not be the place for this but its where i read it so phuck it!

    Is a female who KNOWS that we (humans) are a sexual creature REALLY a victim when she winds up “giving it up” to some dude?? Can a female really play the crying game when its over and done with when in fact she forced the label of relationship into a situation that everyone knew (including her) it was just a mutaul meeting of libidos??? I think allowing them to continue using victimization as an excuse is what makes them a victim. Allowing them to use that as an out instead of expecting them to evolve or “get wit’ it” is what makes them a victim. Not a victim of the male predator but a victim of self enforced, parent promoting, religiously taught boundaries that promote social retardation and personal lack of growth. AND BEFORE ANYONE ATTACKS ME ON THIS… If you have decided to put a limit on sexual expression because of past encounters-Im cool with that! BUT if you have any limits, codes, rules of conduct based NOT on who YOU are as a human BUT completely influenced by what you percieve society expects…

    The minute you chose to please the masses and not be true to yourself, you loose the right to claim you are a victim when you run into that one guy/chick who lives life according to what they expect and want to accomplish!

    I have said it numerous times in previous postings on Sir Bill’s site-I HAVE MORE LOVE AND RESPECT FOR THAT FEMALE WHO HAS BEEN WITH AS MANY GUYS AS I HAVE BEEN WITH GIRLS BECAUSE THATS WHAT SHE ACTUALLY WANTED AND NOT *REPEAT NOT* FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL WHO DECIDED TO LABEL WHAT THEY HAVE AS A RELATIONSHIP INSTEAD OF BEING HONEST AND WORRYING ABOUT SOCIETYS JUDGEMENTAL EYE! You cant be a victim when you have lost sight of or refused to accept who and what you are.

    (and on a lighter note: Instead of labeling me a cheat/liar/predator, don’t you think that at the end of the day I MIGHT be the actual victim?? I have to sit there and pretend that I don’t want to hit that. I got to pretend that you are the only one in this city of millions that caught my eye AND when things don’t go your way, Im the one who gets bad mouthed. having lived my life and done what is the most truthful to ME, is the verbal beating and character assassination Im now getting not a form of victimization?? Just asking)

    As for Gina-CONGRATS! if you still have limits based on who YOU are after this self realization AND not on what others expect then so be it BUT knowing what you want and who you are are worth it when its based on that acceptance.

    • Bill Cammack says:

      Important points made here.

      Women aren’t victims because of some kind of gender-based predisposition, but rather because they accept the brainwashing and never grow out of it, then they go out on dates with guys that have learned The Game and accept it for what it is. There’s no way these two sets of people can be on an even playing field until women wake up and realize what’s really going on around them.

      When you’re a baby, you’re told that Santa Claus stuffs his fat ass down a chimney (which you don’t even HAVE if you live in a hi-rise) and places toys under your tree, inside your apartment with barred windows that’s surrounded on all sides with steel & concrete. It’s absolutely impossible.

      When you grow up, you realize the purpose that that particular fairy tale had as far as your growing up and being a part of American society. Everybody’s told the same story so all the kids can enjoy it together.

      When girls become women, if they never grow out of the fairy tale that they were brainwashed with as small children (You like dolls. You like ovens. You like throwing tea parties. You want to get married when you grow up. There’s someone for everyone…), they bring this bull**** to The Game and get run over with Mack Trucks by guys that know how to use that against them.

      I’ve seen dudes get laid by pretending to want a family. I’ve seen dudes get laid by pretending to be religious. I’ve seen dudes get laid by pretending that every girl they were dating was the *only* girl they were dating. It’s too. damned. easy. because everyone’s so busy maintaining the brainwashing instead of getting women to focus on reality.

      Guys aren’t “doing this” to gals… Guys are merely taking advantage of how women were already set up to take the fall because of statements like “I love you”, which means nothing at all, but some women make it mean everything. The victimization is initially societal, but becomes internal and women carry this with them in ways that we can eventually see, like through what Gina said about her reaction to hooking up with a guy she WANTED TO HOOK UP WITH. The fact of the matter is that she’s an individual human being and she can do whatever she wants with her life, including hooking up with guys without feeling guilty about it or having to try to make it more than it really was. That’s education and enlightenment. If more women were enlightened, The Game would be totally different because guys wouldn’t be able to rely on the old stand-bys to get laid.

      Also, haha I like your “I’m the victim” concept. :D

      I’m definitely the victim in lots of cases because I have to dumb my game down in order to facilitate bull**** fantasies that women have since it wouldn’t be ethical for me to demolish these simpleton concepts for my own pleasure & entertainment.

      It’s really annoying having to treat grown-ass women the same way I treated college chicks back in the day, with kid gloves. It’s also annoying watching them continually attempt to live into a fantasy by throwing themselves at Herbs that you know damned well they’re not going to stay with and then you have to wait for their “relationship” to finally run out of gas so she returns to her normal way of being.

      Unfortunately, it’s pervasive. There’s nothing you can do. There are some gals who know what time it is and a bunch of others that insist on low-rating guys that won’t play that game with them. You can’t tell chicks “Why don’t you just stay SINGLE until you’re INSPIRED to be some guy’s girlfriend?”.. It just doesn’t work like that. They keep trying and I keep babysitting them and the cycle never ends. :D

      I’m *CLEARLY* the victim here! :D

  8. yota says:

    This entire thread has been extremely insightful.

    I’m adult enough to understand “the game” as you call it. I know that the end game for any guy is to have sex, I get it. And I am also adult enough to understand my own needs and desires. But, even though I KNOW this, the emotions attached to the entire flirting and then ultimately sex can still wreak havoc on the female psyche. The best way I can describe it is that your head fully comprehends how the cards lie, but your heart (emotions, whatever) ignores the head completely and feels whatever it wants to feel.

    Here’s an example from my own life. I met a guy a while back. I pegged him from day one as an insatiable flirt, meaning that he truly can’t help himself, he loves to flirt. Ok, I tell myself, this is fun, but it doesn’t mean anything other than he’d probably like to hit it some time. It’s all just a game. No problem. Move forward about three months or so. A little bit of libation to lubricate the situation and flirting becomes some fooling around, but without actually having sex. No big deal, everything is still status quo, kind of a friends with benefits. The next day, we talk, well actually I listened and he talked, he tells me he has a girlfriend and practically begs me not to tell anyone we both know about what happened. Three months I’ve known the guy, strictly as friends despite the flirting, and not once did he mention a girlfriend. In my head I didn’t have any expectations. What went down that night was for our mutual pleasure. I really didn’t want to be his SO because he is such a flirt, and I tend to be jealous (irrational I know). As long as everything is on a hanging out level, I can tell my jealousy to stuff it. But the moment he told me he had a girlfriend, everything my head knew went out the window. For about 2 days my emotions were all screwy. My head was like, what are you upset about, you knew that it wasn’t going anywhere, but my heart wasn’t listening. I did get over it pretty quickly, but that emotional response as a result of how society tells me that relationships are “supposed” to work was still there.

    The only thing that kind of pissed me off later is that I broke my one fundamental dating rule: never poach on another girls territory. I can’t dictate to other people how they play it, but I’ve been on both sides of the cheating triangle, and it’s more drama than I want in my life.

    So I guess I want to say don’t be too hard on girls, because even those who do get it can occasionally be railroaded by their own emotions despite what they know.

    Side question: if there is someone in your life who is important enough to give a title to, then why risk that?

    • Bill Cammack says:

      Hey Yota. :)

      What you describe about emotions attached to flirting is one of the main things that makes women so easy to manipulate. I can say “I love you” and women will make up an entire back-story to three simple words that don’t mean anything at all. Lots of guys understand this and speak to what they know is going to work on you instead of what might actually be true.

      That’s pretty funny, your personal “Tiger Woods-ish” story! :D If he had told you he had a girlfriend before you hooked up with him….. um…… You wouldn’t have hooked up with him! :D He could either have told you the truth and not gotten what he wanted from you or withheld the truth, gotten what he wanted and dealt with the fallout after the fact.

      Your emotions got screwy because y’all chicks like to try to talk yourselves out of emotions and it never works. You’re trying to resist chemical reactions with thoughts. Try that next time you’re at a restaurant and you feel like you have to go to the bathroom. Just THINK to yourself “I don’t have to go. I’m fine! :D”. Tell me how that works out for you.

      This is one of the MANY frustrating things about women. Y’all are OBVIOUSLY attracted and obviously want to mess around, *BUT* you won’t do it if you look down the hypothetical road and don’t see having some sort of control over the guy coming down the line. You can’t just have a good time, go where the day takes you and cherish fond memories the next morning. :) This is why guys hide girlfriends from you. This is why guys pretend that you’re their girlfriend or fiancee or wife or whatever, so you can mentally clear yourself to be all you can be for him. It’s all in the game.

      You didn’t actually poach on another girl’s territory. You didn’t even become aware that there was another girl until after the fact. If you KEPT messing with him, then yeah, you’re poaching! HAHAHA :D

      The reason I *AM* hard on girls is so they come to the very conclusion you stated. Y’all are easily railroaded by your own emotions, regardless of how much you think your mind’s a steel trap and you can’t be manipulated. I saw an episode of Oprah where some so-called playboy was sitting on stage and his stewardess-looking girlfriend was in the front row, looking like she drank the kool-aid. Oprah asked her something about the guy and she goes “He never used any of his tactics on me!”. I’m throwing cabbage and tomatoes at the TV like YOU ******* IDIOT!!! THAT’S HOW THE ******* GAME WORKS! :/ YOU’RE NOT *SUPPOSED* TO KNOW WHAT HE’S DOING TO YOU!

      That’s one of the funniest questions I get IRL. Chicks ask me if I think I can [take them down]. The answer’s unfortunately a cycle. She wouldn’t be asking me if she didn’t know what I talk about on my blog, so she already sees me coming. So the actual answer to the question is “Hellz YEAH, if you didn’t already know what I was going to do to you, I could take you down with no problem” (assuming certain basic blocks were in place to begin with, such as she’s either physically attracted to me or at least not repulsed by the concept of hooking up with me… I can get past that, but it’s a tremendous waste of time, working your way UP to ZERO!).

      Your side question is a good one. In general, guys don’t have a lot of opportunities to hook up with special chicks that they actually feel like making a legitimate LTR out of. Guys in that situation definitely should NOT risk that and should stick to what they have. A lot of women confuse the fact that a guy will **** them a lot of times as being in a relationship with him. A lot of guys hand out titles to chicks in order to activate her and make it to the “bonus rounds”, hehe but she’s either the “Main Squeeze”, “Best Girlfriend” or he hands out the same title to every gal he dates.

      Another thing is a post I’ve wanted to write for a while, called “Hunters”. You can see this type of behavior if you watch “Jersey Shore”. Ronnie sold out to get consistent ass from Sammi, which he should have. He’s getting laid every night with a chick that looks hawt to him, which is lots of guys’ goal in life. :) Meanwhile, Mike & Pauly are hunters. They go out to the bar/club/boardwalk and see what they can come up with by the end of the night. Sometimes the chicks are hotter and sometimes they’re more busted. Sometimes they’re faster to take their clothes off and sometimes they’re slower. Sometimes they get pIZaid and sometimes they don’t. Either way, they’re always in the game. Meeting a gal that you feel like giving a title to doesn’t automatically take you out of the game, but you think of her more often and give her more priority.

      Basically, giving a chick a title’s like making a reservation at a restaurant. :D

  9. yota says:

    So a title affords you priority but not necessarily fidelity. Does that work both ways?

    I think the defining difference in my reaction is that I did not act on the emotions. I may not be able to control my emotional response, but I can control how I act because of them. I didn’t freak out on him, and I can even say we’re still friends. Things kind of cycled back to where it was before he told me he had a girlfriend, except of course for the fact that now I know about her so there are no more benefits.

    The attraction is still there, you’re right I may as well try to ignore the urge to go to the bathroom, but in this case it is something that while I can’t ignore, I can choose not to act on beyond the flirting that already goes on.

    Funny enough, those three little words, “I love you” generally elicit the exact opposite of the desired response in me. If a guy says it to me I’m generally out the door faster than the word you finishes echoing through the room, and I’m putting his number on block as I go. It’s just more than my BS detector can take or something. The guys who pull out that tired chestnut do it way too early. They think they know me, but they only know the edited for tv version of me. The only people who I believe “love” me are my close friends, the ones who have seen me in both my ups and my downs.

    • Bill Cammack says:

      Some very good points, Yota.

      I could interpret your question about it working both ways in two different ways, so I’ll answer both.

      Does a gal giving a title to a guy mean anything more than a guy giving a title to a gal? Nope. It’s all meaningless without the actual relationship, which is something you basically said at the end of your comment about guys telling you they love you. It’s absolutely meaningless if the actual REAL relationship isn’t in place to support the words.

      I had a miscommunication with a homegirl of mine the other night when we went out to a party. This happened because we usually speak to each other directly before we hang out and this time we texted and the next morning, I felt like I may have misinterpreted her text in a way I hadn’t considered beforehand or while we were at the party.

      I left her a message, apologizing if I misinterpreted her intentions for the evening. The reason I bring this up is that the actual words “I’m sorry” are completely meaningless without my relationship to her including the component that I want both of us to have a great time every time we go out. I could have easily elected to SAY “I’m sorry” because I knew it would solve any potential issue we had with each other by taking the responsibility on myself and making her feel like she was right. Elementary.

      However, since our relationship IS what it IS, my words came from a FEELING of being sorry if I made her evening less than perfect for her. It turned out that I hadn’t misinterpreted her and everything was cool. The point being that whether it comes from a guy or a girl, words are absolutely meaningless without the foundation of an authentic relationship supporting those words.

      If what you meant was “Does fidelity afford you a title?”, the answer is “No”.

      Excellent point about acting on your attraction vs acting on the urge to go to the bathroom. A lot of women claim they’re no longer attracted and get themselves in trouble, thinking that they can talk themselves into an inauthentic state of being and then they wonder why they gave it up to him again.

      Also, since you’re choosing not to hook up with him, I reiterate that you never encroached on the next chick’s man. He played her dirty, for sure, but there was no way you could have known that being that he hid it from you at least by omission.

      I wouldn’t have expected you to freak out on him but now that you mention it, I can see that being the reaction of some people. It didn’t enter my mind because I’m very used to finding out information about people from one second to the next. I’m rarely surprised when I hear that someone said or did something that contradicts my previous perception of them. I subscribe to the theory of Free Will and that people are going to do whatever they want to do whenever they want to do it.

      The tough part for women is that y’all have to have the presence of mind to accept that guys MIGHT do some dastardly, underhanded ish to get you to lay down, but at the same time, you have to guard against becoming jaded because of that knowledge.

      This dude omitted the fact that he had a girlfriend until he hooked up with you to whatever degree, *THEN*, he Tiger Woodsed you with the good ole’ “Let’s keep this on the DL” so he doesn’t get busted by the girlfriend he didn’t bother telling you he had. On top of THAT.. You probably told him at some point that you don’t mess with “taken” guys and he knew damned well that if he hooked up with you and then you found out about his girl, you’d probably be mad at him for dragging you into a situation you already told him you weren’t down with.

      So, on the one hand, you have to keep your mind & “heart” open as far as accepting guys at face value when they kick game to you but you have to remain vigilant because the odds are high that they’re going to select screwing you and losing you as a friend over remaining your friend and never getting to “the good part”.

      As far as “I love you”, I was just using that as an example. Guys say lots of other stuff, like “I’m not married”, “I don’t have a girlfriend”, “I’m getting a divorce”, “I fell in love with you”, “I don’t have [X] disease”, “I’m sterile”, “I’ve been tested”, “I didn’t bang your sister”, “I’m gonna take you shopping in the morning after we do this”, “I’m not going to be deployed to the war”, etc, etc, etc.

      The point being why tell the truth, when you can say something more effective at getting you laid? There’s no reason at all.. Especially if you’re going to dump her anyway if she doesn’t hook up with you.

      Just to play Devil’s Advocate, HAHAHAHAHAHA.. While I’m on the topic of lies, another good lie is “I have a girlfriend”, which you would utilize against a gal you don’t want to have sex with anymore to make sure she backs off of you because of her own previously-declared principles… O_o

      • C jay says:

        Just to play Devil’s Advocate, HAHAHAHAHAHA.. While I’m on the topic of lies, another good lie is “I have a girlfriend”, which you would utilize against a gal you don’t want to have sex with anymore to make sure she backs off of you because of her own previously-declared principles… O_o

        I used to do this until i observed a friend of mine do the exact opposite he used i have a girlfriend as a means to get laid. blew my mind until i realized that it actually makes sense cuz the other girl assumes that now she has leverage to keep you quite so that you wont put her biznezz all out in public. Pure genuis as far as i am concerned.

        • Bill Cammack says:

          “I have a girlfriend” will get you laid for other reasons too. Women take other women’s word for stuff. The fact that one of them selected you as boyfriend material means that you ARE boyfriend material and they should try to pull you for themselves. Lots of women would rather go after a guy that’s already been verified than date actually single guys who nobody vouches for.

          Also, if you have a girlfriend already, you’re considered “taken” or “spoken for” which means you’re not likely to catch feelin’s over tappin’ some other chick. She can get in and back out without incident. This works for chicks that are trying to avoid stalkers and dudes that try to treat chicks like property once they hit it one time.

          “Taken” guys are also a challenge. What better way for a chick to demonstrate to herself that she’s unique and better than the next chick than to take (or at least borrow) her man?

          Depending on the chick, claiming to have a girlfriend or a wife is the best thing you can do to get her to give you some.

  10. […] said yesterday (meaning she SAID it yesterday, not I FIGURED IT OUT yesterday! :D): Yota: “The attraction is still there, you’re right I may as well try to ignore the urge to go to […]

  11. Bill Cammack says:

    Continued from Fishingrod’s comment, above

    Of course it is possible to feel inspired to form a special connection to more than one person. But that does not mean it is retarded “to low-rate anything that’s not offered exclusively”. This is low-rated for a very good reason: It is a lesser thing. If you have ONE girlfriend, all the time that is not filled with work, sleep, working out, enjoying your hobbies, spending time with friends (male and female) or enjoying solitude is hers. If you have TWO girlfriends, this time has to be shared. With three, the piece of the cake gets even smaller.

    I agree with what you’re saying, but that’s not the point I’m making. :)

    Because someone doesn’t subscribe to the concept of only feeling a certain way about ONE person at a time, that’s what’s low-rated.. You’re right that any situation where you would like to have 100% of the attention and you receive 80% or 50% of the attention SHOULD be low-rated. What I’m saying is that there’s a threshold above which I feel a certain goodwill or admiration or whatever towards someone that I’ve decided via their words and deeds that they deserve and that I naturally have available for them.

    I have friends that have been there for me for most of my life. We’re not related by blood. How are they *not* my brothers, simply because we were born to different families? If I had a better word, I would use it, because there are lots of people who are actually brothers to people and they’ve treated them like garbage, so they deserve way less allegiance than people who have done the right thing throughout the years.

    Similarly, the brainwashing is that the only way what what a guy feels for a gal can possibly be real is if he’s offering it ONLY to her. I’m talking about the feeling. You’re talking about the benefits to the female BASED ON that feeling. The concept of people’s feelings for others becoming less than zero because they verbally agree to be in a relationship with one person is complete bull, which is demonstrated all the time by people cheating and breaking up with people they’ve been in LTRs with. There are people that start out with the desire to focus on one person and hopefully for them, that’s what they find and it works out for them forever and ever. :) There are other people that are like “You’re a fantastic chick and so is she and so is she”. The tangible benefits from that can definitely be low-rated. The sentiment itself cannot. You’re attempting to force people to select ONE best friend instead of having several friends who have proven themselves above the threshold of “Great & Cherished Friend”.

    I know that – due to the nature of your job – you don`t need to work so many hours per week to pay your bills, but most people need to work the regular 40 hours or more to achieve that. That does not leave too much time. Add kids to the mix, and it becomes a real challenge to find the time to not be just parents, but lovers as well. That is why so many couples break up within a year after their first child is born. They lose the connection. It takes a lot of conscious effort and time to keep it alive in the hassle of our daily routines.

    It’s funny… I JUUUUUUST had this conversation with a female friend of mine this afternoon. Besides the fact that I live in NYC where we have so many chicks running around with nothing to do that you couldn’t hook up with all of them in a single year, even if you tried.. Like you said, I have an amazing amount of free time. I’m going to have to write a separate post about that because it really does affect my perception of women that they’re available way less than I am, and I hadn’t noticed that until you brought this up.

    Women don’t occur to me as constants or fixtures. Women occur to me as singular instances that occur or don’t occur on any given day. I make my plans within hours of spending time with them because I never know what I want to do until I want to do it and then my interest in doing it doesn’t last so long before it changes to wanting to do something different or spend time with someone different.

    This is why your “more girlfriends = less time” concept, which is entirely valid for people that don’t have any time to mess with chicks, doesn’t apply to me because I’m only peripherally involved with all of them. At one point in college, I had three actual girlfriends and was spending time with a bunch of other chicks at will. All three of the chicks went to different schools, so that wasn’t a problem. They all had schoolwork to do and classes to go to, so that wasn’t a problem. I would go visit them at their places so there was no concern with overlapping and running into one chick while I was with another one. Simple. No Muss, No Fuss.

    ‘Matter of fact (though I would never aspire to this, haha), there are guys that have been documented on investigative reporting shows that have maintained two entirely separate households by telling one chick he was going to work at night and telling the other one he was going to work in the daytime. Were these the smartest women? Nope. However, through the proper allotment of time, it’s very easy to hook up with, date or be in a LTR with several women simultaneously, so long as the amount of time that they want you around is less than the amount of time you have available to give them.

    But yes. Thanks for pointing this out. I hadn’t considered that the amount of free time I have and the way I structure it skews my perception, but it definitely does.

    A friend of mine lives with two men. One is her husband who lives in the same house with her, the other lives in the same street and is the biological father of her two children. The kids are raised with two fathers. All people involved seem to be happy with this arrangement, and I have no moral objections. But when I see how the three adults treat each other and how they define themselves, I notice that the degree of intimacy they share is somewhat lower than in most marriages I know that consist of only 2 people. It is as if they are more stand-alone entities…., which is not bad. It is just not what I and probably a lot of others want from a relationship.

    I don’t care where anybody LIVES. The question is whether both guys are hooking up with her or not. If not, that’s just a typical situation where a guy still sees his kids although his ex is with the next man now.

    The other day, I found this text:
    http://www.emandlo.com/2009/10/when-your-booty-call-wants-to-spoon/
    and really liked how the conclusion was phrased:
    “You shall know the Free Trial Citizens by the trail of broken hearts they leave behind, by the ease and aloofness with which they perform PDA, by the days and days they can go without needing to see your face or bury their own in the crook of your neck — and you shall avoid them like the plague (or at least herpes).”

    How many times per day would you be available for someone who wants to bury their face in the crook of your neck, Bill? How many times if you had 1 girlfriend? How many times with 2, 3 or 4? And how many days can you go without ever thinking about doing that?
    That is why it’s low-rated.

    I like the term in that article, “Casual Intimacy”, haha. I’m going to start using that. I think it’s relevant.

    The answer to your somewhat strange and fascinating question requires some explanation. When I’m into a chick, I’m on the case. I’m making moves. I’m gonna be all over her because that’s what I’m there for. I don’t receive requests to do this and that because I’m already doing it. I get more requests to STOP doing what I’m doing than to START. >:)

    So, you’re barking up the wrong tree with asking me how many chicks I can simultaneously satisfy (although I’m sure you take issue with my using the term “satisfy” HAHAHA). The time they have available to spend with me is WAY LESS than the time I have available to spend with them so seeing multiple women in the same day “ain’t no thang”. Making multiple women’s acquaintances in one day or at one event is commonplace also. This is because I’m only involved in peripheral relationships and I let other guys do all the heavy lifting.

    As you said.. If I had kids (which I don’t), that would be a problem. If I had to work 60-80 hours a week (which I don’t), that would be a problem. The answer to your question is that I’m available more than I’m requested to be available, which makes the answer “Always”, relative to the needs of the individual chicks. Overlapping requests are dealt with by consulting the hierarchy “chart”.

    Having said that, being a guy in the USA, I’m the one that does the requesting, not the other way around. Guys are the ones that have to work for the raps and make everything happen, so it’s way less of an issue of when I might be summoned by one or several chicks simultaneously and mostly an issue of whenever I happen to be feelin’ them and contact *them* with an offer to bless them with my presence.

    • fishingrod says:

      “I don’t care where anybody LIVES. The question is whether both guys are hooking up with her or not. If not, that’s just a typical situation where a guy still sees his kids although his ex is with the next man now.”

      OF COURSE they are both hooking up with her on a regular basis. Otherwise I would not have mentioned it in this context. She was married to the one guy years before the other guy had the two kids with her. There was no plan who should be the father, it just happened. And she was the girlfriend of the guy who fathered the kids long before she married the other one. It is a ménage à trois.

      “I have friends that have been there for me for most of my life. We’re not related by blood. How are they *not* my brothers, simply because we were born to different families?”

      I absolutely agree with you. Actually, that is how I prioritize when I think about how much time I should spend with whom. The basic question: Who are the people that I can call in the middle of the night when I’m in trouble, trouble of “the kind that blindsides you at 4pm
      on some idle Tuesday”. Those people will always have first priority. I made the mistake of neglecting friends once, when I was in my first relationship. My only excuse is that I was very young. But I make sure not to repeat this mistake.

      And yes, I also think that the term “casual intimacy” is relevant. It seems to be some kind of desease that is spreading fast. People take comfort in going through the motions, “playing house”, enjoying the pseudo-intimacy of certain gestures, but there is no substance behind it. Yet it seems to satisfy them. Like children that can not tell between rhinestones and diamonds. It scares me.

      • Bill Cammack says:

        aha.. Thanks for the clarification on that threesome situation. That’s an interesting and foreign concept to me and I’m going to think about it to see if I come up with an opinion on it.

        Personally, I can hang out with multiple chicks simultaneously, but I’m not into messing with them simultaneously. Consecutively or Serially? Sure! :D On the same day, sure. Just not together. I can’t concentrate on more than one chick at a time, which either makes the second one irrelevant or makes me not as into what I’m doing with both of them. I actually prefer one-on-one hangouts as well, because the conversation goes where it’s supposed to as opposed to where it goes when someone else is listening in.

        Casual Intimacy is something else I’ll have to take time to consider and post about. IME, women aren’t likely to accept casual intimacy any more than they’re likely to accept casual sex for the reason that if they get started, they’re not going to want to stop. It’s really kind of funny/pathetic how 35-year-old women can be reduced to the state of giggling teenagers just from licking their necks. Just goes to show how lame society’s become and how many guys aren’t handling their business correctly with their own women.

        Women are used to these hollow substitutes for men that populate this country that are scared to look at, speak to or touch women at all. It’s no wonder they go for pseudo-intimacy a la carte, because they never get the real thing and wouldn’t even recognize the real thing if it were breathing down their necks.

        • fishingrod says:

          Sorry if I was not clear enough, but I was not referring to any simultaneous action. The three share the family life, but as far as I know, she spends some nights with one guy and some nights with the other.

          “I actually prefer one-on-one hangouts as well…”
          Finally something we have in common. :-)

          “Just goes to show how lame society’s become and how many guys aren’t handling their business correctly with their own women.”
          Hm… but can you put 100% of the blame on the men? Women should know what they want and request it until they get it. Given the right incentive, most guys will comply, sooner or later. ;-)

          • Bill Cammack says:

            I see. That makes sense.. although I wouldn’t figure it “night to night” but rather that if one of the guys is already getting on, the other guy waits his turn.

            The one-on-one thing is actually a strange departure for me, IMO. Hunters like myself normall fall into the more-the-merrier camp. I did that ages ago when I was a teenager and it was a cooks-spoiling-the-broth situation. A lot of stop & go and switching, which is annoying instead of exciting. If I hook up with a chick, I’m in it to win it. I can deal with her homegirl another time or later.

            I don’t actually put the blame on the men. It’s an initiative of the overall society & the media. They keep pumping “If you want to **** women, you’re a creep.” Guys are to blame for falling for the okey-doke and taking themselves out of the game. Women interact with these guys and THINK they’re in relationships when they’re not. When that relationship’s over, they look for another one just like it because they have no experience with men that know what to do with women. It’s a pathetic cycle.

            Women can’t know what they want if they’ve never had it before.

            • fishingrod says:

              “Women can’t know what they want if they’ve never had it before.”

              They can. There are books on the topic. I read a very good one before I ever had sex: “For ourselves. Body and sexuality from women’s point of view.” by Dutch author Anja Meulenbelt. This book saved my life. ;-)

    • C jay says:

      Of course it is possible to feel inspired to form a special connection to more than one person. But that does not mean it is retarded “to low-rate anything that’s not offered exclusively”. This is low-rated for a very good reason: It is a lesser thing. If you have ONE girlfriend, all the time that is not filled with work, sleep, working out, enjoying your hobbies, spending time with friends (male and female) or enjoying solitude is hers. If you have TWO girlfriends, this time has to be shared. With three, the piece of the cake gets even smaller.

      This makes no sense to me at all. Why low rate the experience just because it is not exclusive to you?? Lets assume the slices of cake actually do get smaller that has no implication on the actual taste a good cake always tastes good no matter how small the slices you get are.

      • Frank says:

        Thank You. You are a wonderful individual!! :)

        • Bill Cammack says:

          haha Hear Hear! :D

          That’s an excellent way to put it and completely sums up my feelings about this issue.

          The cake that’s being offered is DELICIOUS!!! :D .. However, because a chick won’t be able to eat the cake over and over and over and over and over and over and over, she’s going to low-rate it AND act like you’re not putting your best foot forward for her when you’re trying to show her the time of her life… today.

          Similarly, even if she gets to eat the cake several times, as soon as she finds out she’s not the only one eating it, she’s sour about it. Pathetic.

          It’s like what if I didn’t offer you any cake AT ALL? O_o What if I offered you cake that I knew wasn’t any good instead of going all out for you in the time that we share together. It’s really amazing and pervasive.

          The funny thing about it is that the cake is good as **** until she finds out that someone else had some too. THEN, all of a sudden, it’s like she knew it the whole time. Nope. You were loving the cake up until that time so DON’T FRONT ON THE JIMMYYYY (word up), CAUSE JIMMY CAN HEEELLPPP YOUUUUUUU! :D

  12. Frank says:

    “…If you have ONE girlfriend, all the time that is not filled with work, sleep, working out, enjoying your hobbies, spending time with friends (male and female) or enjoying solitude is hers. If you have TWO girlfriends, this time has to be shared. With three, the piece of the cake gets even smaller…”

    The piece of the cake becomes smaller is actually not a very valid point. Unless you actually live with the person (and even if you do) its absoluty ridiculous to think that any free time outside of work/obligations is going to be spent with your significant other. I would even argue that expecting to spend all your time or thoughts (…”If you have ONE girlfriend, all the time that is not filled with work, sleep, working out, enjoying your hobbies, spending time with friends or enjoying solitude is hers…”)would be the reason one would run into the arms of someone else. The longest relationship I ever Ever EVER had was 6.6 years. Notice how clinical I am about expressing that number. She was one that believed that I should be available to caress her nooks,be thinking about her 24/7, be available to her as needed because she felt that way about me. Thats not how Im built or how I operate. I was as faithful as any one could expect me to be to the terms of a relationship, meaning that I still enjoyed flesh that wasnt hers during the first few months before I realized it was a LTR and the last few when I wanted her to vamoose. It becomes suffocating when women in their fantasy worlds believe that I can’t look at anyone else. I cant “want” to bang that chick from that show. I cant continue to be friends with some one who I have been intimate with. Every free moment I had was not meant for US to have.

    and finally “…the term ‘casual intimacy, is relevant. It seems to be some kind of DISEASE that is spreading fast…” Really? Disease? What’s wrong with getting what you need at that moment in time and enjoying it like its the greatest you have had. It may very well be the greatest that day. I mean, if im STARVING and cant stop thinking of that seafood paella with a nice cold Modelo Negra and finally topping it with my moms home made flan… Am I not allowed to enjoy that hot dog with onions and Pepsi from the corner vendor???

    • fishingrod says:

      I don`t know how you define “work/obligations”, Frank, but in my world, hobbies, spending time with friends, enjoying solitude etc. don`t count as obligations. It is supposed to be fun. If you have time to enjoy all that on your own and still don`t want to spend the rest of your time with your GF, you probably don`t want to have one at all.

      The 6,6 years LTR you mentioned: That was the girl you were “emotionally done with” after 2 years, right?

      “Am I not allowed to enjoy that hot dog with onions and Pepsi from the corner vendor???”

      What you describe is the kind of consumer mentality that I would call a disease of our time. It is okay to consume hot dogs with onions and Pepsi. These are objects. People are not objects.

  13. Frank says:

    I never said i didnt want to have a GF but I did say I am not TRYING to make everything about her! I think we are both at deep ends of our own ideas, come on over and meet me in the middle. I believe that a good lasting relationship is based on 2 people who are willing to work together and are willing to be available for each, having said that it should aslo be based on each of us understanding that the 3 months we have been together dont measure up the the 40 years i have on this planet… Just because I have an hour today does not mean I owe you 60 minutes of my time. why cant i go spend 49 of those minutes pushing back a cold one with them dudes who i have known since i was 5yrs old?? Why do i owe you 60 minutes, 59 of which Im thinking of how longs its been since me and the fellas had a good night to our selves. Whats more valuable to you: a phony 60 minutes or a sincere 11 where Ive had the chance to go out and realize that I do miss you and being around you?? I cant miss you if you are always there. And while i do agree that we should have mutual friends and know each others friends, that does not mean that your friends and my friends are OUR friends. We are individuals for a reason and we should be allowed to have those precious few moments where my individuality is still appreciated.

    Funny aside: Men are supposed to want to be around their woman all the time if its allowed just to show how dedicated they are. Woman can call out of the blue and say they are having a ladies only day… Why? Whats the difference? If your friends dont like me, theres a good chance they will spend their time taking diggs at me. If my friends dont like you, well its the beer sum wings and no mention of you.
    The food thing, that was just for context and wording. But i wont apologize for the idea behind it.

    Yeah that was the same girl. I was a coward then and was still living in that Im supposed to be married with kids at a certain age that society says I should be. That would never happen today.

    Heres a question:

    What if during that time (where I forced myself to play by societys rules and indulged her fantasy of being in a relationship) the person who i should have been married to came and went??? Where do i redeem my credit voucher? I couldnt have known that person was out there because “life” told me that I wasnt allowed to seek. Should I have cut her off sooner OF COURSE!

    • fishingrod says:

      Okay, maybe this is due to my lack of language skills or something, so I`ll explain it one more time. What I meant by

      “If you have ONE girlfriend, all the time that is not filled with work, sleep, working out, enjoying your hobbies, spending time with friends (male and female) or enjoying solitude is hers.”

      is that 100% of your time minus time for work, minus time for sleep, minus time to hang out with friends (without your GF), minus time for hobbies, minus time to just sit around and do nothing should be reserved for your girlfriend. Is that clear now? Of course you can have a beer with your pals without your GF. That was the point I tried to make: Because there is so very little time left that can be spend with the SO, having to share this little time with GF no. 2 or 3 in a non-exclusive relationship makes it a lesser thing than an exclusive relationship.

      Hm. Is my English really so bad, or were you in fact not reacting to my comments, but to the nagging voice of your ex-girlfriend inside your head?

      To your last question: I remember you saying that you stayed with your ex for four more years, even though you were emotionally done with her after 2 years, because “the sex was okay”. Which basically means that she turned into a hot dog with onions for you at that point. And if you missed the person “you should have been married to” because you kept spending time with the hot dog for convenience sake, it is 100% your own fault. I don`t understand how you can blame society for that. As far as I know, society does not punish people for breaking up with their partners when they find out that they are emotionally done with them.

  14. Frank says:

    You absolutely correct… society does not punish BUT it does dictate to those willing to follow.
    I was 21 when this strated. Society and my parents had long since established that at that age I should have had 2 kids, a house, a dog, and a misses. When I did broach the subject with others i was reminded that she was a nice/good/well mannered/balhblahblah girl. When I did decide it was time and spoke to her about it I had to entertain her mother reminding how she had been looking forward to getting married and having kids and blahblahblah… Whatever!! 1st time in a foreign sack for me happened with someone who was well aware of the situation and had been my shoulder to lean on. So YES society has a very strong say in/on how we conduct ourselves and what we do. I fell victim ONCE…

    Its not a barrier thing as far as language. I actually misread what you wrote BUT i still have isuues with the wording you used. Any time after the fact should be “HERS” (…all the time that is not filled…is hers”) … How does my time become hers??? Whats more valuable to her/you/them: Me saying I have these 20 minutes that are hers so let me take my tired ass up there OR me saying I have a few minutes and cant wait to see her. And please understand if I HAVE to see you I will BUT if I WANT to see you I will cheat on everyones elses time and try to get US more than just the 20 i wound up with. We all live with expectations but that doesnt mean that desire is not an actual word. Id rather desire you than have to be with you! When it becomes routine, expected, or demanded there will be problems. Yes my fault 100 percent which is why I make no apologies now that i learned from that mistake.

    and as for the original post “Unexpected Sex / Just The Way I Planned It” my first encounter was unexpected but just the way it was planned. when this lovely looking girl and her welcoming shoulder kept making time for me the day itself was unexpected but it sure as hell wasnt unplanned.

    • fishingrod says:

      Your parents expected you to have 2 kids, a house, a dog and a wife at the age of 21? I don`t mean to insult your parents, but that sounds crazy to me. I am sorry that you were under so much pressure….

  15. Bill Cammack says:

    @Fishingrod, @Frank: Excellent convo haha I’ve been sitting here with the popcorn! :D

    Here are my thoughts about several of both of y’all’s points:

    Fishingrod: “If you have ONE girlfriend, all the time that is not filled with work, sleep, working out, enjoying your hobbies, spending time with friends (male and female) or enjoying solitude is hers. If you have TWO girlfriends, this time has to be shared. With three, the piece of the cake gets even smaller”

    I see what she’s saying and I agree with her point that she included “all non-girlfriend time” in that complex sentence right thurrrr. :)

    What I disagree with is that *ANY* time at all is owed to anybody, which is a version of what Frank’s reply was. This is why I mentioned “controllability” somewhere as one of the qualities that women look for in men they want to date. Guys who are like “I’ll seeya when I seeya” are given less priority than guys that swear up and down that they’re going to spend time (and a lot of time) with gals in order to entice them into becoming their girlfriends. Of course, my usual comment applies here. Guys that are going to do the **** what they want to do know enough about the game to LIE and say that they’re going to spend time with chicks. By the time she figures it out, she already gave it up, so who cares?

    This is why, even though I’ve already explained why the cake-theory doesn’t apply to me (I have more free time than chicks are trying to take up, so I don’t have any problems seeing several simultaneously), I don’t believe it applies in general anyway. Girls get what they get and then they take it or they leave it. I know lots of chicks that sit at home EVERY night and hope the guy they like is going to call them and he never does, but *IF* he does, it’s ON & POPPIN’, because she’s trying to improve her position on the totem pole. She knows that if he doesn’t have an excellent time, her ass isn’t going to get any more time than she’s already been getting, AND she might get chumped off the roster entirely. \o/

    Frank: It becomes suffocating when women in their fantasy worlds believe that I can’t look at anyone else. I cant “want” to bang that chick from that show. I cant continue to be friends with some one who I have been intimate with. Every free moment I had was not meant for US to have.

    I experienced this one time. ONE time. :D It wasn’t the chick’s fault, because she was under extraordinary social pressure to look good (read: assertive) when we were hanging out with friends of mine. She was very important to me at the time, but very easily and naturally, the vision of me dumping her right on the spot floated into my mind and stayed there for quite a while.

    I didn’t figure out until this year actually what my real problem was with her behavior. If you’re supposed to be about me, like I’m supposed to be about you, you’re going to want ME to be happy and I’m going to want YOU to be happy. If I’m checking out some ass, you need to leave me the **** alone or point out A BETTER CHICK for me to check out.

    If it comes down to a choice between JUST YOU and every chick on the planet that isn’t you, PEACE! Beleedat. On top of that, regardless of what I was looking at, I was messing with HER every day and doing everything I could to make her happy on a regular basis. Just because I’m with you doesn’t mean I’m not attracted to other chicks. I’m not going to disrespect you and kick it to some chick in your face, but if you think you have actual control over anything I think, look at or do, you’re a fool. :)

    Fishingrod: The 6,6 years LTR you mentioned: That was the girl you were “emotionally done with” after 2 years, right?

    hehe OUCH! haha I think she caught you out there with that one! :D *popcorn*

    Fishingrod: In my world, hobbies, spending time with friends, enjoying solitude etc. don`t count as obligations. It is supposed to be fun. If you have time to enjoy all that on your own and still don`t want to spend the rest of your time with your GF, you probably don`t want to have one at all.

    I see what you’re saying here, and I can’t speak for Frank. There are clearly widely varying concepts of what a girlfriend’s for and why one may or may not be necessary.

    For some guys, the girlfriend is the chick he’s hoping to get married to and/or start a family with. For some guys, the girlfriend is the chick you have sex with on the most consistent basis. There are lots of levels in between those extremes as well.

    IMO, the optimum situation is where the chick actually does cool things where you want to include her and invite her along. She rollerblades? Good. Teach her to play hockey with you. She’s into video games? Good, put her on your team. She likes brew? Bring her to the pub with you. She likes to act? Create an internet show with her…. Whatever.

    There are lots of situations where dudes hang out with their girlfriends when they have nothing better to do or when they feel like getting laid. In any case, the only potential penalty for not spending time with your girlfriend is that she leaves you. That doesn’t mean that you didn’t want a girlfriend. That means that what she was looking for and what you were looking for were two different things and it didn’t work out between you.

    Fishingrod: What you describe is the kind of consumer mentality that I would call a disease of our time. It is okay to consume hot dogs with onions and Pepsi. These are objects. People are not objects.

    Great combination there, Fishingrod. :) Very effective. :D

    I agree that we’ve been affected by the “consumer mentality” you mention, however, those of us that are affected actually DO “see people as objects”.

    To attempt to clarify.. I saw this chick while I was skating this morning and the first thought I remember having was “I want some of that Right. Now.”. I’m sure I had other thoughts in the split second before that thought, such as “DAMN! CHECK OUT HER ASS!!! :P~~~”, but those got lost in the haze before my mind cleared up enough to be aware of what I was thinking about. Did I care what her name was? Nope. Didn’t actually occur to me until right now, writing this reply to you. All I knew was what I wanted.

    So, in that sense, I agree with you that we’ve been conditioned to see people as objects, or at least “something to enjoy” or a nice experience to have. That doesn’t mean you treat people in a disrespectful manner, but I feel that Frank’s analogy is on-point when it comes to the a la carte nature of dealing with women here in NYC. There are just too many. Something you like’s going to come down the street within the next five minutes.

    Unfortunately, it’s very tough to explain to people that don’t live in incredibly densely populated areas. People come and go like water.

    Frank: Men are supposed to want to be around their woman all the time if its allowed just to show how dedicated they are. Woman can call out of the blue and say they are having a ladies only day… Why?

    Oh.. I can tell you why they have THOSE! hahaha :D

    That’s the time when they can commiserate about YOU and all the rest of the guys and hope that none of their girlfriends drop dime.

    I’m actually a fan of Girls’ Night Out. I think women get a lot out of it, being that they have to deal with men at home and in the workplace all the time. They get to cut loose for a few hours and act like they don’t have any responsibilities. I’m sure they return to their households refreshed and ready to get back to whatever it is they have to do on a regular basis.

    Frank: What if during that time (where I forced myself to play by societys rules and indulged her fantasy of being in a relationship) the person who i should have been married to came and went??? Where do i redeem my credit voucher? I couldnt have known that person was out there because “life” told me that I wasnt allowed to seek.

    Yeah, See… That’s the whole problem. People have it easier in the sticks, because they have a finite number of people to select from. You select the best person currently available and you know nobody better’s ever going to come strolling down main street because you all went to school together and you know everybody.

    Here, there’s just too much selection. It’s way easier and less time-consuming to stop dating a chick and meet a new one instead of trying to fix the original one’s glaring character flaw. This environment isn’t conducive to relationships unless both people happen to be looking to settle down AND their threshold’s low enough that they’re willing to accept that person as-is instead of looking for something better.

    Fishingrod: I remember you saying that you stayed with your ex for four more years, even though you were emotionally done with her after 2 years, because “the sex was okay”

    oh wow. She got you again! :D hahaha

    Having said that, that’s a perfectly valid reason for keeping a chick as a girlfriend. So is “She cooks all the time” and “She was really HAWT and made me look good when I walked into parties with her on my arm” and “She wasn’t a pain in the neck” and “She wasn’t crazy” and “She didn’t have any kids”….. There are lots of reasons a guy would keep a girl as his main chick when it’s clear that she’s not someone you want to escalate the relationship with at all.

    Fishingrod: Your parents expected you to have 2 kids, a house, a dog and a wife at the age of 21? I don`t mean to insult your parents, but that sounds crazy to me. I am sorry that you were under so much pressure….

    You would have to understand the society he’s talking about. When I was growing up (and I suspect it was the same for Frank), it was typical for girls to be pregnant at 15 and be on their second kid by 18. The age of 21, when we were growing up, was old as hell as far as starting to have kids.

    Currently, I know women that are 28 years old and talking about MAYBE they’re going to have a kid 4-5 years from now. They’re obviously from a completely different society with completely different experiences and expectations.

    Personally, I never had any such pressure and wouldn’t have gone for it anyway, because I do what I want to do. I’m not really interested in what other people think as far as what I should do and when. I understand how that could have happened in Frank’s situation, though.

    Frank: Whats more valuable to her/you/them: Me saying I have these 20 minutes that are hers so let me take my tired ass up there OR me saying I have a few minutes and cant wait to see her.

    This is something that a lot of women don’t seem to get. They find the value in your being there within the fact that they forced you to be there. You’re there because you HAVE to be because they’re so special that they have this hold over you.

    A lot of gals try to do this with kids. “If I have a kid with him, he has to stay with me” “If I have a kid with him, he has to stop screwing other women” “If I have a kid with him, he has to give me money” “If I have a kid with him, he won’t leave me” None of that stuff is true. It always comes down to free will. Just because YOU care that you had a kid with some guy doesn’t mean that HE cares. “If I have a kid with him, he has to help change and feed it”. Nope. The government can garnish his wages and make sure he gives you money to pay for his responsibility in the situation, but they can’t make him do anything else. Especially during football season! :D

    But seriously folks.. The actual value in the situation is that the guy WANTED to see her, made time to see her and made the effort. I do everything at the last minute because I don’t feel like doing ANYTHING until I feel like doing it. If I make a plan with you on Tuesday to hang out on Friday, when Friday rolls around, I probably won’t even be interested. I can still go and hang out, but I don’t really care and I can’t bring my A-game. OTOH, if I call you on Wednesday afternoon to see if you want to have drinks Wednesday night, that means that you CURRENTLY came to mind and I’m currently very interested in spending time with you, which is exactly the time you need to spend time with me because you’ll experience the best that I have for you.

    Meanwhile, the self-help books will tell you that if a guy doesn’t make plans with you days in advance, he doesn’t deserve for you to make moves and spend time with him on the spur of the moment. Guys know to jump through these hoops to keep their foot in the door, but once they get the rap, coercive behavior is going to be resented, if not grounds for dismissal.

    What you get as a girlfriend is TOP CONSIDERATION not ownership of anything at all.

    • C jay says:

      In other words what frank and bill are trying to say is that once you start spending time with a women when you really don’t feel like it, it starts to fall under the obligation section

      • steve says:

        Wow, I just mainlined this entire conversation. 47 comments!
        I agree with C jay,and that means the dude’s got one eye on the exit sign for when the time is right. Coercion is for chumps and it’s the oldest tool women have. Well there’s the other thing so I guess it’s second oldest… to flip the script: I wish women would intellectualize there way out of that cave-womanish behavior and be fine with us when we’re around when we actually WANT to be! ;-)

        I figure if you’ve got to whine, force, or blackmail someone into conjugal visits, displays of affection, giving you shelter, whatever, it’s just not a “good” relationship. Or at least one where both parties feel like they’ve made an active choice/exercised free will, whatever.

        Earlier (comment number 3 billion?) Bill said, “If you’re supposed to be about me, like I’m supposed to be about you, you’re going to want ME to be happy and I’m going to want YOU to be happy” – I think Bill was paraphrasing Sting but I’m letting that slide because… this statement is so true, it’s TRUE. But alas, we’re also selfish creatures…

        • Bill Cammack says:

          heh.. Nah, I wasn’t paraphrasing anybody. I was actually thinking about something that only recently occurred to me which is that a lot of women’s game comes down to demonstrations of control and power struggles. The only way they can prove to themselves that they have you ‘in pocket’ is to order you around and try to make you do stuff.

          Meanwhile, dudes pretend to BE in pocket and do what women say so they can get laid. As soon as that’s not a motivating factor anymore, nothing gets done, the gal feels like the relationship broke down and exits. All jumping through hoops does for you is prolong the amount of time you get to hit it before she breaks North.

          There are some times where it’s clear that she’s flexin’ just to try to chump you off to prove something to herself. Why should you take out the garbage while the game’s on? Why should you go to her grandmother’s house with her for dinner instead of out for drinks with your boys? There’s no reason at all, and “I don’t feel like it” is a perfect reason NOT to do it.

          If a chick’s supposed to be down for you, she WANTS you to watch the game so YOU can be happy and then you feel all goodwillish and decide to make HER happy. She WANTS you to go out for drinks with your boys so you have a good time and decide to show her a good time later OR go do something you don’t care about but that she likes because she was cool enough to stay out of your business when you didn’t want her there.

          That’s the whole problem. Power Struggles result in one person realizing they had less power than they thought. That’s not what a relationship’s about. It’s about building each other up, not tearing each other down when one person wants to do something the other one doesn’t agree with.

  16. Gina says:

    This is still going on? Ha. I’ll read everything later, way too lazy to now lol, but had this bookmarked before and now remembering it. Hope everyone is well.

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