Dating Encroachment & “Inappropriate” Behavior

So I’m reading my friend’s blog post, entitled Date Review: Space Invader, and she’s basically talking about this dude she went out with for the first time that was overstepping boundaries that she had set up for herself.

Her reactions to what he was doing happen to be rather typical, so even though I responded with a comment on her article, I think these things are worth going over at length, so maybe y’all chicks can gain a better understanding of what’s really happening to you when you go on dates.

* I wrote about a different post from her blog 6 months ago, in “*Actual* Anatomy Of A First Date (Guy’s Version)”

It Takes Two To Tango

TheDiva: Last night I accepted an invitation to drinks with [this guy]. I was looking forward to getting out and enjoying a couple of beers with some good conversation.

This appears to be all well & good. 🙂 We would all hope that anytime we get together with anyone and go to a bar that we’re going to enjoy some tasty, effective alcoholic beverages, accompanied by pleasant, intelligent, visually-pleasing company.

Unfortunately.. When you’re going out on a DATE, there’s a reason why you were selected for the date. o_O

This is not an after-work event where you just so happened to end up in a bar talking to some random person. This is not “Girls’ Night Out” where you and your cronies get to commiserate about dudes. This is not a family reunion….. Although.. Some people get raps during their own family reunions, so maybe that scenario doesn’t assist my point…

The point is that you need to focus on what *HE* wants to get out of going on a date with you, not what you EXPECT to happen on the date, or what you think is appropriate or whatever commonly-agreed-upon rules you think “Normal People” follow in life.

Is that because his opinion is more important than yours? Nope. It’s because you are approximately 100% unlikely to do something to yourself that you don’t like. Does that make sense? o_O If you go out on a date with him and something you don’t like happens to you, it’s WAAAAAAAAAAYYY more likely that HE did it to you than that you did it to yourself. Therefore, your job is to focus on what HE’S trying to do, instead of only considering how you envision the evening playing out.

Some people don’t want to live this way. Some people can’t live this way. Some people are just lost in the sauce and will never be able to put the shoe on the proverbial ‘other foot’ and see themselves from the other person’s perspective. If that’s the case, good luck to you. 🙂 Otherwise.. It’s in your best interests to remain vigilant when spending time with people that you don’t know until you have legitimate reasons to consider them trustworthy.

Tell It Like It Is

TheDiva: I had already told this guy that I was not looking for anything right now and really wasn’t into dating, but figured there is no harm in meeting someone new.

Besides the fact that guys don’t care what you think, statements like that are vague, as well as subject to change. “Looking for anything” could be interpreted by a guy as “Looking to get married” or “Looking for a boyfriend”, which is perfect if he was planning on hooking up with you without having you get all clingy! 😀 “Not into dating” could mean the same thing.. “I don’t really feel like going out to dinner, but I’m definitely DTF“.

As far as him not caring what you think, you (again, pessimistically) have to view the situation from his perspective and according to what his personal agenda is, for a) going on dates with anyone at all, and b) going on a date with YOU, specifically. If his goal was to see if he gets laid and your goal was to enjoy a couple of beers and good conversation, that may or may not work out, as y’all at least started the evening out wanting completely different things… Or.. Maybe not completely different, but his plans included your entire plan, and then some

As far as the vagueness of those particular statements (not that she was quoting herself, verbatim), y’all females are going to have to be specifically specific about what you’re saying if you want a guy to understand you properly. I know it’s going to feel uncomfortable to you to even THINK about directly stating what you want, need or expect from a guy, but it’s imperative that you get used to laying it out very cleanly and simply. Here are a couple of personal examples (with two different females):

Chick #1

Her: I only mess with my boyfriend.
Me: Are you serious? o_O
Her: Yes.
Me: Ok.

Chick #2

Her: I don’t want you to kiss me anymore.
Me: I asked you if you wanted me to not kiss you the other night, and you said you loved it when I kissed you.
Her: I was drunk then.
Me: Ok.

This is how simply and directly these things need to be discussed.

With Chick#1, We were hanging out and in the process of enjoying each other’s company and she wanted to make it clear that she was physically committed to the guy she was dating. I’m sure a lot of people think this is obvious. It isn’t. Just because a chick’s dating someone doesn’t mean she’s not DTF.. In fact, let’s add that to the list of statements. “I have a boyfriend” does not mean to a guy “I’m not going to have sex with you”.

If what you MEAN is that you don’t intend to hook up with him, that’s exactly what you have to say. On top of that, if a guy’s been on the dating scene more than one year, he’s had a girl lie to his face about having a boyfriend and then found out after the fact that she just used that lie to avoid his advances, so it’s not like we even BELIEVE YOU when you say that.

The way that situation panned out, she said what she had to say, I confirmed and acknowledged her statement and we kept on partying with our new understanding of each other’s position.

The situation with Chick#2, occurred under completely non-interactive, sober circumstances while we were having a discussion. I very well in fact had asked her days before this conversation, during the actual process of kissing her, whether she wanted me to not kiss her. I made it clear that I didn’t mean “Right Now”, but rather if she wanted messing around to not be a part of our relationship in general.

At the time, she gave one answer. Days later, she gave a completely opposing answer. I wasn’t complaining in my response. 😀 haha I was confused and wanted to understand what had happened in between then and now. Her response made the situation clear to me and I acknowledged receipt of the communication.

Without that verbal exchange, I would have assumed going forward that she was just as interested as she had been the last time we messed around. There are way more issues here, surrounding the problems you encounter when carrying on a relationship with both of the alternate personalities of women who drink, but that’s beyond the scope of this article.

My point, ladies, is that you have to be direct. If you don’t explicitly state what you’re thinking, what you want and what you don’t want, you might not like what you get.

Bar Stools RULE!!!.. They RULE!!!

TheDiva: I arrived at the bar and he had already been waiting. I typically opt for meeting at a diner or restaurant … places where you are not seated closely or sitting right next to someone at a bar… and I came to realize pretty quickly that I am not a fan of this situation at all!

hahaha I initially misread this section and had envisioned them seated at a table. I thought she was explaining the reason WHY they were sitting at a table. She was actually describing her experience of not adhering to her usual steez. 😀

I love bar stools. I LOVE THEM!! 😀 haha bar stools are my friends!.. I put in CRAZY WORK on bar stools. You have no idea how useful bar stools are when you’re kickin’ it to a chick! HAHAHA

As far as her usual technique, that’s a good idea, if you don’t intend to have any physical contact with a dude (even though you went out on a date with him…), having something between you, like a table, is definitely a good idea.

Just so you know.. I easily defeat table-attempts by sitting NEXT TO HER instead of across from her. 😀 So you might want to not only select a restaurant, but get one where you can specifically request either a booth or a table that’s placed against the wall so he would look like an idiot if he tried to move his chair next to you, placing him directly in the aisle! HAHAHA 😉

TheDiva: Strike one: Immediately he began resting his feet on my chair. This was my first feeling that my personal space was being invaded. Seriously, I think on a first meeting you should be extremely respectful of the other person’s space. I am not a closey-close kind of person right off the bat and this made an already uncomfortable situation even more so.

Again.. The first time I read her article, I was like “That must have been a small-ass table, that he was able to rest his feet on her chair from his seat! o_O” haha Now I realize that he was on a bar stool right next to her bar stool.

Sorry.. That’s SOP (Standard Operating Procedure). If I’m sitting with a chick at a bar, my feet REMAIN on the bottom rung of her chair.. AT LEAST! >:D

Do I think this was a good tactic for the particular guy in this particular situation? Nope. She clearly wasn’t feelin’ him, which should have indicated to him that pressing up that close on her wasn’t going to get him the WIN. I’m just saying that this is another situation where what YOU think and what YOU want are going to be overridden by his goals for the evening unless you SPEAK. THE. ****. UP!

Whatever you think about “respectful of space” or whatever doesn’t count for anything to him. Some people think you shouldn’t cross the street when the sign doesn’t say “Walk”. Some people cross the street whenever there’s no traffic. \o/ You don’t get to make the etiquette rules for someone else, so, again.. Focus on what HE’S trying to do and if it doesn’t match what you want to do, let him know. Directly.

You don’t have to be rude about it, just make sure he gets the picture that he’s losing points with you instead of gaining them. If he’s smart, he’ll get in line and do what you instructed him to do. If he persists, the entire rest of y’all’s relationship is going to consist of him ignoring what you tell him, so you may as well excuse yourself and BOUNCE.

TheDiva: Strike two: Drilling me on what I like/dislike and trying to validate yourself with each answer. Do guys really think that this will convince me they are my perfect match? Maybe I should have just been raw and honest and broke him down piece by piece as to why I already knew I wasn’t feeling it?

This is also SOP. I don’t do it personally, because it doesn’t work on intelligent women. Lots of guys do this, though, so it’s a good tactic to be aware of… Whatever you like? I like that too! 😀 *waves* .. Whatever traits you like in a guy?.. GOT ‘EM!!! 😀 .. Whatever you think about kids? Me too. Dogs? Me too. Yankees vs. Mets? ME TOOOOO!!! 😀 .. whatever. Business is Business.

As far as whether you should have told him you weren’t feeling the date, I guess that depends on how much of a philanthropist you are. 😀 I don’t date, personally, but if I did, I’d bite the bullet if a date was wack and I would strive to last whatever amount of time I had agreed to spend with her.

Having said that, I’m the aggressOR, not the aggressEE, so if I’m on a bad date, that just means I don’t feel like hooking up with the chick, so I’m sitting there bored, wasting my time (except for the tasty alcoholic beverages I’m consuming). It’s not like the chick is pressing up on me or invading my space. It’s like being at a boring job, waiting for the clock to tick to 5pm so I can escape and go live my real life, so whether you should cut a date short or not depends on your level of discomfort and whether you feel this date could possibly get better if you wait it out, or that it’s only going to get worse.

Who Are You Telling, Exactly?

TheDiva: Strike three: As if the foot on my chair isn’t enough invasion… please don’t rest your knee against me. We just met! There is no reason what so ever that any of your body should be touching mine. So back off and recognize that I am inching away every time you try this move. Not to mention I have totally turned my body away from you at this point.

Redundant issues at this point. The leg-touching-leg is SOP in bar-stool tactics. Next comes her legs sandwiched by my legs, or either my left or right leg between hers, then hands on thighs, then standing in front of her, then around behind her to massage her back.. *yawn*

The Great GazooThe other redundant issue is that y’all need to stop talking to yourselves or to Mr. Magoo or to The Great Gazoo or whomever you’re telling all this “He should do this and he should act like that and this isn’t appropriate because” and OPEN. YOUR. *******. MOUTHS. and say something verbally, out loud, directly to the guy, so that he can hear it, when he’s encroaching on your personal space or doing anything else at all that you don’t like.

All this waiting for him to realize the error of his ways is going to do absolutely NOTHING for you. He’s not malfunctioning. 😀 He’s doing what he CAME THERE TO DO, which is GET HIS HANDS ON A CHICK THAT HE’S ATTRACTED TO. That is the POINT of a DATE! 😀 If he didn’t want to get his hands on YOU…. wait for it……… He’d be on a date with A DIFFERENT CHICK!

This is what I mean when I say you have to pay attention to HIS goals for the evening. Nobody cares about your personal space. Nobody cares about “We just met”. Nobody cares about “I put my leg on her seat and she didn’t verbally suggest that I remove it”. Nobody cares about “I put my knee against her leg and she didn’t verbally tell me she didn’t want me to touch her”. Nobody cares about “She turned her body away from me”. All he knows is that he’s trying to get laid and you haven’t left yet, so he’s still in the game.

TheDiva: Last and final strikes: Under no circumstance what so ever is it appropriate to grab a woman’s hand and hold on to it. This happened TWICE! The first time was early on and he wanted to see my wrist tattoo… ask me and I will be happy to give you a good view of it, but grabbing my hand and holding it is a major DON’T.

The second time he grabbed both my hands to look at my nails and just held on to them! WHAT THE HELL!? This was so inappropriate. I said “can I have my hand back??” and pulled away.

Yeah.. This is REALLY BAD technique. 😀 There’s no way that was going to work in this circumstance. That’s not SOP. I don’t even know WHAT that is! It’s just dumb! 😀

I’m glad she actually SAID something this time, but “Can I have…” isn’t the same as saying “Don’t touch me”, just like “I have a boyfriend” isn’t the same as saying “I’m not going to kiss you”.

I know that Dr. Phil and body language experts and other people tell women that if you act a certain way, guys will get the hint. I’m telling you that the *ONLY* way to go is directly stating exactly what you want and don’t want him to do to or for you. Even if a guy gets the non-verbal hint “She’s turned her body away from me, which indicates displeasure with me”, he might not give a flying ****. Did you consider that? What if he knew putting his foot on your chair made you uncomfortable and he kept going? What if he knew putting his leg against yours made you uncomfortable and he kept going? What if he knew that the first time he grabbed your hands it made you uncomfortable and he kept going? o_O

Where was this supposed to stop?….. That’s why you need to inform guys what your personal boundaries are with them. If you don’t draw any lines, guys are going to keep stepping over the imaginary lines that you think are clearly drawn for anyone with common sense and good manners. I’ll bet if this guy were asked, he’d have a totally different perspective of what happened that night. Up until this point right here, she hasn’t given him one clear indication that he’s in violation of her personal rules for guys that would like to date her.

If she would have verbally vetoed the foot on the chair, or verbally vetoed his leg on her leg, either a) it would never have gotten to the hand-grabbing stage, or b) when that happened, it would have been clear to her that this guy intends to do whatever he wants, regardless of what she thinks or says, which would most likely have been the evidence she needs to excuse herself (or not, haha) and BOUNCE.

Sleepers

TheDiva: I wonder what the other people at the bar thought of us. I wonder how obvious it was that I was totally not feeling this guy. I wish someone had stepped in to save me.

This, in fact, is a VERY DANGEROUS mindset. Seriously.

There’s this myth that just because you’re around other people, they’re a) going to perceive that you need help, and b) step in to “save you”, potentially endangering themselves in the process.

For the most part, that’s not going to happen.

Assed OutFirst of all, from everything I read so far, there have been ZERO INDICATIONS of any danger from the guy towards her.

Second, there’s no indication of what relationship they have to each other.

Even if someone saw her pull her hand away and say “Can I have my hand back?”, nobody knows if they’re in a LTR together and that’s how they relate to each other.

Nobody knows what either of them said to each other.

It’s apparent that she can just move her chair and walk away if she feels like it.

She’s not screaming at him OR yelling for anyone to come help her get away from this guy… Most people, under these circumstances, are going to mind their own ******* business.

In fact.. On any given evening in Manhattan, NYC, you can spot guys or gals sprawled out drunk in the street, or resting comfortably on top of a pile of garbage… You know damned well that you weren’t the first person to walk down that street. When you get there, there might even be several people milling about, socializing, only a few feet away from the sleeper.

My point being that if people can walk right by, around, or, in some cases, step over someone that’s obviously physically incapacitated, what makes women think that people are going to “save them” from what appears to be a perfectly normal dating situation? o_O

If you don’t believe what I’m saying to you, watch it in action in these videos:

YouTube link to part 01 of the video => [link]

YouTube link to part 02 of the video => [link]

According to Professor Carrie Keating in the first video, “We’re so sensitive to embarrassment, to stepping out of line, to one another’s privacy, that sometimes we don’t step up when real action is called for.”

I’m Leaving My Wife (But Haven’t Yet)

TheDiva: So, in conclusion – the beer was excellent but the company was far too intrusive. Not to mention our conversation consisted of what I like/dislike, his soon to be Ex Wife who still lives with him, and Cats. *yawn*
Maybe it’s just me? Are there any women out there who like this sort of behaviour?

For the record, hahaha “I’m going to leave my wife” is SOP too. 😀 Variations include “We’re still together, but filed for separation”, “We’re separated, but filed for divorce”, “We’re divorced and we share a house as roommates”, “We’re divorced and sharing a house until our lease is up, when I’ll move to a new apartment on my own”, “We’re divorced, but still live together for the sake of the kids”, “We’re divorced, but can’t afford to live anywhere else right now”…….

Anyway.. I wanted to talk about this situation because it’s typical. It’s not an anomaly. TheDiva didn’t do anything out of the ordinary. Guys press up on gals every single day and try to get laid. That’s how most people were born. It’s a biological imperative.

If a guy wants to kick it to you, it’s on *YOU* to let him know what the boundaries are as far as behavior that you’re willing to accept from him. You have to speak. up. and tell him what you do and don’t want him to do. You could elect to be polite about it if they seem to be honest mistakes or just him not understanding that he’s violating. Other than that, you have to put your foot down and let him know directly that he’s out of pocket, and if it persists, you’re leaving.

Unfortunately.. The Game never changed and it never will. People want to tell you that guys are going to act like gentlemen, keep their hands off of you and not try to hook up with you on the first date because… um… because…….. because it’s 2010? 😀 HAHAHA Don’t you think people said the same thing back in the day, like “He wouldn’t dare do XYZ.. It’s 1950!!! :O”

Do you think people went plum loco buck wild crazy and turned into sex freaks in the 1960’s and then just happened to change their minds at some point? If so, what year did the changeover occur? 😀

It DIDN’T OCCUR is the answer, so, regardless of what y’all think is improper or unacceptable or inappropriate, recognize that it takes two people to go on a date. If his goals for the evening aren’t the same as yours and he ends up being unintentionally or intentionally disrespectful, it’s going to be ON *YOU* to let him know what time it is, shut him down if necessary, and if that doesn’t seem to be working, get your ass up off that bar stool and SKATE! >:D

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10 thoughts on “Dating Encroachment & “Inappropriate” Behavior”

  1. I gotta tell ya Bill, you are right on point here. I will never understand why women act like this. This woman is using her chick logic to defend her bad choice of going on a date with this guy in the first place. Like about 90% of the guys out there (according to a statistic I just made up), this guy was clearly a douche bag. To me, everyone and their grandma ought to know that going on a date is pretense for one thing and one thing only…TO HOOK UP! Maybe not the first date, and maybe not the second date, but eventually that’s where it’s going to end up. If she never intended for it to go that far, than she should have never agreed to the date PERIOD
    What I don’t get is this, why in the world was she still sitting there after the first 5 minutes of being “uncomfortable”? F*&# polite!! If you don’t feel like rolling with his game or if you’re just plain not feeling it, the absolute best thing you can do is DIRECTLY tell your date what’s up and leave. You are a mature adult, act like it. Trust me; it is in the best interest of both parties to part ways ASAP. Sitting there being “polite” and possibly milking him for a drink or two while not directly telling him that you’re not interested is not going to communicate anything to him. As far as he’s concerned, if you’re still sitting there, it’s still ON. Lady, if you’ve got two feet and a heartbeat, GET TO WALKIN’!!!!
    As far as I’m concerned, holding a girl’s hand for a short period of time is not necessarily bad game at all, and can be used to gauge a woman’s interest. My guess is that her body language was indeed more than likely clear that she wasn’t into him holding her hand, but this guy clearly is as dense as a gold bar and therefore didn’t catch the hint, however, she was STILL THERE! She should be taking responsibility for still being there and allowing the hand holding event to even take place.
    Another thing is this, if this had been (insert your favorite stereotypical Hollywood leading man here) and the date went EXACTLY the same way, you better believe her recap would have been “OMG!! I just went on a date with the BEST GUY EVER!! I’m getting married in a month, you’re all invited!!!!!” Seen it happen a bajillion times…then a month or two go by…”ALL MEN ARE PIGS!!! I’M NEVER DATING AGAIN!!!” If this was an actual SINGLE guy and at least a little bit of charm was added to the mix, I can assure you she would’ve been singing a different tune after the date.
    Ladies, I understand your DEEP desire to be in a relationship, I really do, but dear baby jesus in heaven, please be a little more selective and perhaps, *GASP*, once in a while be the first to approach a guy, I GUARANTEE you’ll have MUCH MUCH better success in your quest for love or whatever the hell it is you’re looking for.

    1. Thanks for the props, Jameson! 😀

      hahaha “Two Feet & A Heartbeat” is HILARIOUS!!! 😀

      You bring up a lot of good points. We don’t have enough information from what she wrote to tell exactly what happened on this date, but here’s what I think:

      This woman is using her chick logic to defend her bad choice of going on a date with this guy in the first place.

      I don’t believe the post was written in “defense” of anything, though I agree with you that the date turned out to be bad. It was bad because the guy was a Herb. There was no way for her to know this before she went on a date with him if he knows what he’s doing. She even said he was trying to mirror her likes/dislikes, so he’s obviously working off of some playbook that most likely includes how to look like the type of guy a gal wants to date so you can get your foot in the door.

      So yeah. I don’t think she knew ahead of time that it was going to be bad.

      Like about 90% of the guys out there (according to a statistic I just made up), this guy was clearly a douche bag.

      What’s for sure is that either he didn’t know what he was doing, he was reckless with his game, or he just didn’t give a flying **** what she thought and decided he was going to do anything he wanted to her.

      To me, everyone and their grandma ought to know that going on a date is pretense for one thing and one thing only…TO HOOK UP! Maybe not the first date, and maybe not the second date, but eventually that’s where it’s going to end up. If she never intended for it to go that far, than she should have never agreed to the date PERIOD

      This is the BIG ONE!!! 😀 haha *ALL* GUYS KNOW THIS. This is not obvious to women, however. It honestly boggles my mind, trying to consider how this is possible. The only difference between “Just Friends” and dating is sex. The only reason a guy’s going to go on a date with a gal is because he wants to hook up with her at some point, like you mentioned. If a guy doesn’t want to hit it, they don’t have to go on a date… Just tell her “Let’s go to the movies” or whatever, just like you would say to ANY. OTHER. MALE. OR. FEMALE. FRIEND. I don’t get where the Rocket Science comes in.

      Especially when dude starts pressing up and invading personal space. He’s not randomly and inexplicably attempting to be rude or disrespectful or inappropriate. He’s doing his best to try to get laid. His technique was lousy as hell, but it’s clear from “Strike 1” that he’s on the prowl, and the longer she stays there, the more he’s going to try to get physical with her.

      What I don’t get is this, why in the world was she still sitting there after the first 5 minutes of being “uncomfortable”? F*&# polite!! If you don’t feel like rolling with his game or if you’re just plain not feeling it, the absolute best thing you can do is DIRECTLY tell your date what’s up and leave.

      In general, women are non-confrontational, which is what gets them in trouble a lot of times. This is why they give you a fake number instead of saying “No. I don’t feel like giving you my number.” Giving you ANY number allows them to escape the scenario without having to be “rude” to the guy. Meanwhile, if a chick asked a guy for his number and he wasn’t interested, he’d just say “Nah.. That’s alright”, if he said anything at all to her.

      Having said that, I agree with you entirely, except I would add the buffer of a polite indication that dude was out of bounds, as far as she was concerned. “I’d rather you didn’t have your foot on my chair”. “Sorry.. I’m not comfortable with you putting your leg on mine”. That serves two purposes. First, it lets dude know that he’s doing things she doesn’t like. Second, if he persists, then she knows he doesn’t intend to respect her wishes, which is immediate grounds to bounce.

      As far as he’s concerned, if you’re still sitting there, it’s still ON. Lady, if you’ve got two feet and a heartbeat, GET TO WALKIN’!!!!

      This is another thing that isn’t obvious, for some reason. So long as a guy has a foot in the door, he’s gonna try to get laid.. Which is why he arrived for this date in the first place, to eventually hook up with the chick.

      If you don’t begin with this premise, nothing else that he does makes logical sense. There’s no need for his foot on the chair, his leg on her leg or his hands on her hands. He’s obviously making moves, which is why I said “beer and conversation” is nice for a female as a goal for the evening, but they need to focus on what the GUY is thinking and wanting if they want to have a proper perspective on both sides of the situation.

      Another thing that’s tough for me to understand is that just because a gal might not be physically interested in us, she assumes we aren’t physically interested in her. It’s like she projects her desire (or lack thereof) onto the guy she’s spending time with.

      In fact, she could have had beer and conversation with a girl and skipped the “date” concept entirely.

      Define Boundaries. Inform Of Violations. Bounce.

      As far as I’m concerned, holding a girl’s hand for a short period of time is not necessarily bad game at all, and can be used to gauge a woman’s interest. My guess is that her body language was indeed more than likely clear that she wasn’t into him holding her hand, but this guy clearly is as dense as a gold bar and therefore didn’t catch the hint, however, she was STILL THERE!

      In and of itself, holding her hand is a good play, *IF* you can tell you’re at that point of rapport with her. If you can tell that she’s not feeling you and you do it anyway, you’re an idiot.

      Like I said.. I’ve done WAAAAAY more than hold a chick’s hand while she was sitting on a bar stool. >:D I’m just saying.. If he was getting a vibe from her that she wasn’t into him, that was a dumb move and should have triggered the eject on her part. That’s the whole point of the post, though. Politeness needs to be reserved for people doing the right thing. You can’t determine that someone’s doing something wrong until you inform them that you don’t like what they’re doing.

      This dude didn’t make these tactics up just for this first date… It’s a regular M.O. I’m sure he’s used “Hold her hands” to great effect at times. This wasn’t one of those times.

      I think that if she had let him know directly that his proximity and touching her was annoying her, she would have had enough information to leave before he grabbed her hand or he wouldn’t have done it because he didn’t want to get ejected.

      Another thing is this, if this had been (insert your favorite stereotypical Hollywood leading man here) and the date went EXACTLY the same way, you better believe her recap would have been “OMG!! I just went on a date with the BEST GUY EVER!! I’m getting married in a month, you’re all invited!!!!!”

      In general, that’s possible. I’m sure there are women that don’t want to be touched on a first date at all by anyone.. However.. Moves made by a guy a gal wants get over a gazillion times more than the exact same moves made by a guy she’s not interested in.

      If this was an actual SINGLE guy and at least a little bit of charm was added to the mix, I can assure you she would’ve been singing a different tune after the date.

      Well.. Being that she doesn’t describe the guy AT. ALL. in her blog post, we have no way of telling whether he fit her visual/physical criteria, which would have made it easier for him to win her over with a stellar personality. If he was doomed from the giddyap, he might have charmed his way to “Meh.. He’s alright as a friend”, but getting her to agree to date #2 would have been an extremely tough row to hoe.

      Overall, I’m sure this scenario plays out every hour of every day, somewhere. Being oblivious to what guys want and why we do the things we do doesn’t serve women well at all. If all a guy was interested in was beer and conversation, he could have gone out with a guy or gal he already knows. If he doesn’t want to eventually hook up with a chick, he can make a “date” with a chick he DOES want to mess with.

      For some reason, women just about refuse to believe that they’re selected for dates due to physical attraction, interest, desire, lust, whatever you want to call it. I’m hoping that what they take away from this discussion, other than the requisite BOO HOO HOO, MEN ARE DOGS! (PIGS) and WHY DON’T THEY GROW UP? and ONLY BOYS ACT LIKE THIS, NOT *MEN* WAAAAAAHHH, is that there are clear indicators when a guy’s making moves to get physical with them. If those moves are making them uncomfortable, their best play is to INFORM THE DUDE that she doesn’t like what he’s doing, and see what happens. If he’s only interested in spending time with gals he can touch, he’s going to eject early, sparing her from feeling “rude” by suggesting they call it an early evening herself.

  2. I’m not sure of two things:
    1) Why she left home to go out with a guy she met on Chemistry when she wasn’t into dating – so she could possibly make a new friend?

    2) How presenting herself as she does (uber-defensively) is going to lead to this guy having a good enough time to continue any engagement with her.

    All the way through the conversation and up to the handholding it sounds like she showed up, rocked her passivity, and let things happen to her. Unusually, I don’t blame the Diva. Our society teaches our women to be passive and non-confrontational – hence all that lying. My guess is being non-confrontational is supposed to keep women safer but then they end up in places they don’t want to be with people they don’t want to be with acting like the kind of person no one would find interesting.

    1. I haven’t spoken to her personally about this situation, so I have no idea what she was thinking, however, I’d like to answer those questions in a general sense, Steve.

      There are several reasons women go out on dates when they don’t feel like dating… It’s nice for a gal to feel like someone wants to date her. She had nothing better to do that evening. It’s FREE if the guy pays for the date…

      I think the reason that’s relevant to this scenario is a misperception that a lot of women share, which is that guys don’t ask women out on dates with the bottom line being eventually having sex with them.

      I’ve *NEVER* been on a date with a gal I didn’t intend to hook up with ASAP… In fact, it’s extremely rare that I’ll even INITIATE A CONVERSATION with a gal I don’t feel like messing with.

      Women don’t understand this about guys. There’s almost no reason they should, because women have a different process for becoming physically attracted to someone than we do. Asking them to understand men’s sexual thoughts about women is like asking guys to understand why buying 18 pairs of what appear to be identical shoes and having them all lined up in a closet makes women giddy. There’s no explaining that. It’s an absolutely worthless pursuit, but it makes women happy as hell!!! 😀

      So if they don’t understand that we’re already thinking about how we’re going to accomplish having sex with them BEFORE THEY WALK IN THE DOOR FOR THE DATE, they’re not going to understand why our feet are on their chairs and our legs are touching their legs and we’re grabbing their hands and doing all kinds of things that she considers inappropriate.

      This is what gets a gal in the door for a date who doesn’t really want to be on a date. She’s thinking “Beer & Conversation”. He’s thinking “Opportunity For Sex”. She attributes his encroachment to be a lack of social graces. He’s just trying to get his tongue somewhere on her body, ASAP.

      I think the uber-defensive presentation indicates, basically, “I don’t want you to touch me.. Ain’t That Type-a Party! :/”. Again.. This is the action of someone that didn’t intend to get felt up when she agreed to “Beer & Conversation”. This is what I hope women take away from a lot of the posts I write. I’m not saying that all guys do “inappropriate” stuff. I’m saying that you’re a fool if you don’t UNDERSTAND that SOME GUYS do “inappropriate” stuff. If you show up thinking the best, his worst might shock you or even harm you (go watch the videos in the article). If you show up thinking the worst, a) you probably won’t be surprised, and b) you’ll correctly interpret his moves as trying to get laid instead of lacking the ability to respect another human being’s personal space.

      Unfortunately, as I said, throughout.. Communications need to be definite and deliberate. Using body language to indicate displeasure is only going to deflect the lamest guys from trying to get some. Nobody cares where you’re located on the bar stool, so long as you’re still sitting there. Nobody cares whether you don’t want to be touched unless there are going to be consequences & repercussions, such as her getting up and leaving, in which case, you don’t get laid, which was the whole point of asking her out in the first place.

      The gals have to take responsibility for their desires and clearly inform guys what they like, don’t like and aren’t going to stand for.

      Society puts an interesting mental stranglehold on females.. Several chokeholds, in fact.

      Every woman you know thinks she would look better 5 pounds lighter. o_O That’s a sickness. Every time they lose 5 pounds, they ramble on about how they need to lose 5 pounds. Society told them they’re supposed to look like stick figures instead of women, and they bought it.

      Similarly, women are pressured to NOT be assertive. Guys don’t have that problem. If something happens, it’s like “Yo. Get out of my face!”. Women are pressured to avoid confrontation. This is one reason why they hand out fake numbers instead of saying to a guy’s face that they’re not interested. It’s better to lie about what her number is and whether she’s interested in the guy while he’s still there, and then once he’s no longer in her physical presence, he ceases to be an issue and/or a physical threat.

      If the tables were turned… Which, of course, is a practically-impossible hypothetical, because guys don’t go out on dates with women they’re not physically attracted to… The statement “I’m kind of uncomfortable with how close to me you’re sitting right now” would have handled the situation. She would have to either back off or escalate her rap to try to get on. If the guy wasn’t feeling her, he’d excuse himself (or not) and break out. It’s just that simple.

      So.. I think women need to learn when to pull the cord on the parachute. There’s going to be a time when asserting yourself and feeling the internal suffering of bucking against your programming is going to be better than suffering some FOOL that keeps invading her personal space on his quest to reach The Dragon’s Lair.

  3. It’s funny to me that even in this day and age woman still don’t understand the workings of man or just choose to be clueless. I used to tell my wife all the time that she can mention to a man in a bar that she has a b/f or a husband and even have her rings on, but most men don’t care about that. Women don’t get that a man doesn’t sense clues as well as they should. Just because you pull your hands away that doesn’t always tell us your not interested. If we did get that feeling more than likely we will think “ok, bad tactic, let me change it up a bit.” We usually will not give up for something that simple. If you allow us to continue conversation with you then we think we still have a chance. If you tell us straight up, “I really am not interested in anything with you other than casual conversation” or you just end the “date” or meeting with us we will more then likely get the hint. You have to understand that most men (not all of us) are bad readers. What I mean by that is they don’t pay attention to signs, clues or reactions. There is one state of mind really when you’re out at a bar and especially when there are drinks involved. And that is to go for what we want no questions asked. We really do have cavemen mentalities when it come to woman. It’s our natural instinct. Your natural instinct is to find the best mate. The one that can provide for you and give you the best looking and healtiest offspring. We want to find as many mates as we can to provide offspring and spread our seeds. All of this automatically switches most men to conquer mode and makes them not able to identify what your trying to say with body language. That is when it unfortunately becomes your responsibility to make us aware. Trust me if you tell a man at a bar you are not looking for ANYTHING with him and he should move on, he will move on at least for the time being. That will then send him into “Why can’t I get that?” mode so he may come back later for another shot but you could be gone by then. I would not waste my time if my only goal for the night is to see which women are interested. If you’re obviously not then I’m on my way to the next one. As I’ve told my wife, let them know you’re only talking to them for conversation. Because they really don’t care if you’re married. Speak up ladies. It’s your best offense.

    1. You hit on some important points there, cuzzo. 😀

      It’s funny to me that even in this day and age woman still don’t understand the workings of man or just choose to be clueless.

      It really IS amazing.. However, a few months back, readers “Sophia” and B.M. made a very good argument for this cluelessness, or the need to believe in the fairy tale, being hardwired and actually essential in some women’s lives.

      In this type of case, women just about HAVE TO believe that men are dating them for their personalities and not their looks. They’re not going to look good forever, but they’re more likely to retain the same personality for a much longer time. It’s practically a mental defense mechanism, because otherwise, they would be paranoid that their man might dump them for any chick that looks better than them, since looks are what they were selected for in the first place.

      The funny part to me is that it’s impossible to explain the difference to them between a gal that turns us on and a gal that doesn’t. It’s like night and day… I’ve walked past myriad shoe stores without even noticing that I’m passing one, but walk with a gal past a shoe store and watch first her attention and then her entire body gravitate towards the window. 🙂 It’s pretty fascinating. I’m standing there feeling nothing at all and she’s all hyped up over some shoes, when she has like 80 pairs of shoes ALREADY at her house that she can only wear one. pair. at. a. time. \o/

      That will never make sense to me, so I don’t expect women to ever understand how a guy acts or why he does what he does when he’s around a gal that he’s naturally desirous of having sex with.

      As soon as I read “Blah Blah going out on a date”, I hear “The guy is receiving an opportunity to try to hook up with the chick”. Like Jameson said, there’s no other reason to go on a date.

      Meanwhile, the gal shows up and thinks she’s sitting there talking to what amounts to another girl and then gauges the actions and statements of the guy as if he’s another female. Of course she’s not going to think “He’s moving closer to me because he’s trying to figure out how to have sex with me”. She’s also not going to understand that there’s no reason to go out on a date with a chick that you DON’T want to hook up with when you could just as easily spend time with gals you DO want to mess with by going through the exact same process that he used to ask HER out in the first place.

      To us, it’s extremely, painfully obvious, though.. She may as well have said “How come those firemen rolled up in the truck, attached the hose to the hydrant and turned on the water? o_O” and we’re like “um… There’s a house that’s on fire, and that’s their job.. To use water to put the fire out”. If you don’t understand that the house is on fire, the truck, outfits and hose can’t possible make any sense to you.

      I used to tell my wife all the time that she can mention to a man in a bar that she has a b/f or a husband and even have her rings on, but most men don’t care about that.

      Absolutely. Nobody cares. If she has a ring on her finger, that doesn’t mean she’s not going to give it up. If she DOESN’T have a ring on her finger, guys aren’t even likely to believe (or care) that she has a boyfriend. She can get back to that boyfriend stuff after the action is over.

      So, in this case.. Saying that she’s not looking for anything right now or isn’t interested in dating has ZERO effect on what the dude’s going to try to do = get laid. Unfortunately, this isn’t going to be obvious, because guys know to play along with whatever a gal says so he gets his chance to throw his hat in the ring, IRL. In fact.. Guys even LIE about things, including saying they’re over 6′ tall when they’re really 5’9″ because if that’s what it takes to get his chance to get his hands on the chick, so be it.

      This is why I was saying the best play is for women to make their points directly and obviously clear. Anything less will NOT stop the bum rush.

      Just because you pull your hands away that doesn’t always tell us your not interested. If we did get that feeling more than likely we will think “ok, bad tactic, let me change it up a bit.” We usually will not give up for something that simple. If you allow us to continue conversation with you then we think we still have a chance.

      This is critical.

      This is exactly what happens. The thought is “That didn’t work.. Let me try something different to get laid”. Trust Me, haha I’ve been slapped by quite a few chicks in my career and I always remained in the pocket. She’s still standing there? I still have a shot at this.

      Pulling hands away or turning a body away or frowning or acting disinterested or whatever, that’s all Minor League stuff and isn’t going to deter guys that are used to The Game. The entire system is set up for the female to give you a hard time before she gives it up. Everything a guy does is a fight, so when you’re down to the final stage and a chick is acting negatively, it’s really a drop in the bucket compared to what you have to deal with on a regular basis from chicks.

      On top of that.. Lots of women do the exact same moves and then come around eventually and give it up. They pulled a hand away or they physically turned away from us in a conversation and the overall result of the evening was a 2-Point Conversion, if not a Touchdown. These “indicators”, in and of themselves, are absolutely meaningless. Speak Directly To Your Point.

      There is one state of mind really when you’re out at a bar and especially when there are drinks involved. And that is to go for what we want no questions asked. We really do have cavemen mentalities when it come to woman. It’s our natural instinct.

      This is another important point. Women assume that because it’s the year 2010 AD, etiquette is going to trump biology. Nope. Guys want what they want.. ESPECIALLY when we’re drunk. You know what happens if a guy presses up on a gal and she doesn’t go for it?.. He eventually presses up on a different one and then another one and then a fourth one.

      There are like infinite available chicks on PlentyOfFish.com and OKCupid.com and at least six other popular dating sites. You can ask 20 chicks out every single evening and then take your pick from the ones that reply that they’d like to see you tonight. That’s without even checking Facebook or Foursquare to see who’s doing what tonight.

      The point being, though I have no idea what that particular dude was thinking, there was no reason for him NOT to invade her personal space and see if he could get on. If she didn’t go for it (which she didn’t), so what?.. He asks another gal out for the next evening. Depending on the time they left the “date”, he hops on Foursquare and checks the map to see where other women he knows are hanging out and contacts them to let them know his evening suddenly freed up.

      All of this automatically switches most men to conquer mode and makes them not able to identify what your trying to say with body language. That is when it unfortunately becomes your responsibility to make us aware.

      I would say that what you’re calling “Not able to identify” is actually either “Doesn’t Care” or “Identifies your indicators as obstacles to be overcome”. She’s pulling her hand away from me now, so I need to make her feel more friendly towards me within the next hour. She moved her leg and turned her body when I put my foot on her chair, so I need to make her feel more comfortable with me before I can move forward with this rap.

      Yes. Some guys are completely unaware. Lots of guys know that negative behavior’s all part of The Game, and so long as she’s still there, they still have a chance.

      I would not waste my time if my only goal for the night is to see which women are interested. If you’re obviously not then I’m on my way to the next one.

      Another good point. By vocally vetoing his advances and letting him know directly that she’s not physically interested in him, she’s setting the wheels in motion for him to figure that she’s not worth the effort of trying to convert her. This might have led to HIM asking for the check early and bouncing so he could spend his time pursuing a chick that might be DTF.

      This is a win-win situation, because she doesn’t have to waste any more of HER time either, considering that he’s not actually trying to be friends with her and sit down for some friendly beers, like she thought when she walked out the door.

      As I’ve told my wife, let them know you’re only talking to them for conversation. Because they really don’t care if you’re married. Speak up ladies. It’s your best offense.

      Absolutely. Women have to realize that they’re swimming with the sharks now. There are too many women down for too many things for guys to waste time on chicks that aren’t into them. Press up. See what you can get. Bounce. That’s about all the dating game’s about at this point, unless it’s a guy that is looking to get married and have kids.

      Those guys tend to go off the market rather quickly because there are so many women dying to sell out to a guy that wants to be committed to them. That leaves mostly guys that date for recreation. Some of them are down to sit around with you for “Beer & Conversation”. The rest of them are there to see if you look as good IRL as you do in your pictures and see if they can get on. Period.

  4. I love the part about bar stools your absolutely dead on as a matter of fact after the cell phone they are one of the most important items in the dating game. In terms of this situation the harsh reality is that she just wasn’t feeling him period. I mean i really don’t see where this guy had any major fumbles he just ran the plays the he usually runs and she just wasn’t feeling it. He definitely could have been a bit smoother though.

    1. Right. None of the moves were actual fumbles, but like Jameson said, he wasn’t the right guy to make those moves.

      The reason I consider the hand-grab a fumble in this situation is because of dude’s lack of perception that he hadn’t built the proper level of rapport to do that. It was either that, he doesn’t know what he was doing, or that was a “Hail Mary” to see if he could pull a physical win out of this situation.

      Like I said before.. I’ve been physically slapped by chicks for making moves, but that’s the way it had to go down because that’s what I was there for. If I hadn’t planned to press up on her, I wouldn’t have gone out with her in the first place.

      Unfortunately, without videotape, we can’t tell whether this dude was a bumbling Herb or whether he had a game plan that he was implementing that she didn’t go for. Either way, strictly technically, he should have been able to tell she wasn’t cool with him putting his foot on her chair and his leg touching hers, so the hand-grab should never have been attempted until he had successfully reeled her back in.

      1. Yeah, it just kinda sounds like he was running her through the numbers independent of the feedback. Maybe he wasn’t feeling her and he was practicing his game? Maybe I’m giving him too much credit! LOL

        1. I considered the “Maybe he wasn’t feeling her” angle. That may very well be the case, but he was still utilizing poor technique. Pressing up on a chick that’s not feeling you yet is strictly bad form. There’s no point in practicing what definitely shouldn’t work, so I don’t give him any credit for that.

          I think he either didn’t know what he’s doing or that’s his first-date M.O.

          For a lot of guys, the only point of going on dates in the first place is to hook up with the chick. Nobody actually WANTS to go to the movies or the museum or the park.. That’s just what you have to do to get her to lay down, so guys do it. If they could put stuff in their profiles like “I just want to bang you” and actually have girls agree to meet up with them for sex, that’s what they’d do.

          Since they can’t, they have to sit on bar stools acting like gentlemen until they can get to the good part. This is why it’s imperative for women to make what they want directly and clearly known. It’s only after that that they can gauge whether he cares what she wants at all or whether he’s only there to get his feel-up on and whatever else he can salvage from this “date”.

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