So I’m reading my friend’s blog post, entitled Date Review: Space Invader, and she’s basically talking about this dude she went out with for the first time that was overstepping boundaries that she had set up for herself.
Her reactions to what he was doing happen to be rather typical, so even though I responded with a comment on her article, I think these things are worth going over at length, so maybe y’all chicks can gain a better understanding of what’s really happening to you when you go on dates.
* I wrote about a different post from her blog 6 months ago, in “*Actual* Anatomy Of A First Date (Guy’s Version)”
It Takes Two To Tango
TheDiva: Last night I accepted an invitation to drinks with [this guy]. I was looking forward to getting out and enjoying a couple of beers with some good conversation.
This appears to be all well & good. 🙂 We would all hope that anytime we get together with anyone and go to a bar that we’re going to enjoy some tasty, effective alcoholic beverages, accompanied by pleasant, intelligent, visually-pleasing company.
Unfortunately.. When you’re going out on a DATE, there’s a reason why you were selected for the date. o_O
This is not an after-work event where you just so happened to end up in a bar talking to some random person. This is not “Girls’ Night Out” where you and your cronies get to commiserate about dudes. This is not a family reunion….. Although.. Some people get raps during their own family reunions, so maybe that scenario doesn’t assist my point…
The point is that you need to focus on what *HE* wants to get out of going on a date with you, not what you EXPECT to happen on the date, or what you think is appropriate or whatever commonly-agreed-upon rules you think “Normal People” follow in life.
Is that because his opinion is more important than yours? Nope. It’s because you are approximately 100% unlikely to do something to yourself that you don’t like. Does that make sense? o_O If you go out on a date with him and something you don’t like happens to you, it’s WAAAAAAAAAAYYY more likely that HE did it to you than that you did it to yourself. Therefore, your job is to focus on what HE’S trying to do, instead of only considering how you envision the evening playing out.
Some people don’t want to live this way. Some people can’t live this way. Some people are just lost in the sauce and will never be able to put the shoe on the proverbial ‘other foot’ and see themselves from the other person’s perspective. If that’s the case, good luck to you. 🙂 Otherwise.. It’s in your best interests to remain vigilant when spending time with people that you don’t know until you have legitimate reasons to consider them trustworthy.
Tell It Like It Is
TheDiva: I had already told this guy that I was not looking for anything right now and really wasn’t into dating, but figured there is no harm in meeting someone new.
Besides the fact that guys don’t care what you think, statements like that are vague, as well as subject to change. “Looking for anything” could be interpreted by a guy as “Looking to get married” or “Looking for a boyfriend”, which is perfect if he was planning on hooking up with you without having you get all clingy! 😀 “Not into dating” could mean the same thing.. “I don’t really feel like going out to dinner, but I’m definitely DTF“.
As far as him not caring what you think, you (again, pessimistically) have to view the situation from his perspective and according to what his personal agenda is, for a) going on dates with anyone at all, and b) going on a date with YOU, specifically. If his goal was to see if he gets laid and your goal was to enjoy a couple of beers and good conversation, that may or may not work out, as y’all at least started the evening out wanting completely different things… Or.. Maybe not completely different, but his plans included your entire plan, and then some…
As far as the vagueness of those particular statements (not that she was quoting herself, verbatim), y’all females are going to have to be specifically specific about what you’re saying if you want a guy to understand you properly. I know it’s going to feel uncomfortable to you to even THINK about directly stating what you want, need or expect from a guy, but it’s imperative that you get used to laying it out very cleanly and simply. Here are a couple of personal examples (with two different females):
Her: I only mess with my boyfriend.
Me: Are you serious? o_O
Her: I don’t want you to kiss me anymore.
Me: I asked you if you wanted me to not kiss you the other night, and you said you loved it when I kissed you.
Her: I was drunk then.
This is how simply and directly these things need to be discussed.
With Chick#1, We were hanging out and in the process of enjoying each other’s company and she wanted to make it clear that she was physically committed to the guy she was dating. I’m sure a lot of people think this is obvious. It isn’t. Just because a chick’s dating someone doesn’t mean she’s not DTF.. In fact, let’s add that to the list of statements. “I have a boyfriend” does not mean to a guy “I’m not going to have sex with you”.
If what you MEAN is that you don’t intend to hook up with him, that’s exactly what you have to say. On top of that, if a guy’s been on the dating scene more than one year, he’s had a girl lie to his face about having a boyfriend and then found out after the fact that she just used that lie to avoid his advances, so it’s not like we even BELIEVE YOU when you say that.
The way that situation panned out, she said what she had to say, I confirmed and acknowledged her statement and we kept on partying with our new understanding of each other’s position.
The situation with Chick#2, occurred under completely non-interactive, sober circumstances while we were having a discussion. I very well in fact had asked her days before this conversation, during the actual process of kissing her, whether she wanted me to not kiss her. I made it clear that I didn’t mean “Right Now”, but rather if she wanted messing around to not be a part of our relationship in general.
At the time, she gave one answer. Days later, she gave a completely opposing answer. I wasn’t complaining in my response. 😀 haha I was confused and wanted to understand what had happened in between then and now. Her response made the situation clear to me and I acknowledged receipt of the communication.
Without that verbal exchange, I would have assumed going forward that she was just as interested as she had been the last time we messed around. There are way more issues here, surrounding the problems you encounter when carrying on a relationship with both of the alternate personalities of women who drink, but that’s beyond the scope of this article.
My point, ladies, is that you have to be direct. If you don’t explicitly state what you’re thinking, what you want and what you don’t want, you might not like what you get.
Bar Stools RULE!!!.. They RULE!!!
TheDiva: I arrived at the bar and he had already been waiting. I typically opt for meeting at a diner or restaurant … places where you are not seated closely or sitting right next to someone at a bar… and I came to realize pretty quickly that I am not a fan of this situation at all!
hahaha I initially misread this section and had envisioned them seated at a table. I thought she was explaining the reason WHY they were sitting at a table. She was actually describing her experience of not adhering to her usual steez. 😀
I love bar stools. I LOVE THEM!! 😀 haha bar stools are my friends!.. I put in CRAZY WORK on bar stools. You have no idea how useful bar stools are when you’re kickin’ it to a chick! HAHAHA
As far as her usual technique, that’s a good idea, if you don’t intend to have any physical contact with a dude (even though you went out on a date with him…), having something between you, like a table, is definitely a good idea.
Just so you know.. I easily defeat table-attempts by sitting NEXT TO HER instead of across from her. 😀 So you might want to not only select a restaurant, but get one where you can specifically request either a booth or a table that’s placed against the wall so he would look like an idiot if he tried to move his chair next to you, placing him directly in the aisle! HAHAHA 😉
TheDiva: Strike one: Immediately he began resting his feet on my chair. This was my first feeling that my personal space was being invaded. Seriously, I think on a first meeting you should be extremely respectful of the other person’s space. I am not a closey-close kind of person right off the bat and this made an already uncomfortable situation even more so.
Again.. The first time I read her article, I was like “That must have been a small-ass table, that he was able to rest his feet on her chair from his seat! o_O” haha Now I realize that he was on a bar stool right next to her bar stool.
Sorry.. That’s SOP (Standard Operating Procedure). If I’m sitting with a chick at a bar, my feet REMAIN on the bottom rung of her chair.. AT LEAST! >:D
Do I think this was a good tactic for the particular guy in this particular situation? Nope. She clearly wasn’t feelin’ him, which should have indicated to him that pressing up that close on her wasn’t going to get him the WIN. I’m just saying that this is another situation where what YOU think and what YOU want are going to be overridden by his goals for the evening unless you SPEAK. THE. ****. UP!
Whatever you think about “respectful of space” or whatever doesn’t count for anything to him. Some people think you shouldn’t cross the street when the sign doesn’t say “Walk”. Some people cross the street whenever there’s no traffic. \o/ You don’t get to make the etiquette rules for someone else, so, again.. Focus on what HE’S trying to do and if it doesn’t match what you want to do, let him know. Directly.
You don’t have to be rude about it, just make sure he gets the picture that he’s losing points with you instead of gaining them. If he’s smart, he’ll get in line and do what you instructed him to do. If he persists, the entire rest of y’all’s relationship is going to consist of him ignoring what you tell him, so you may as well excuse yourself and BOUNCE.
TheDiva: Strike two: Drilling me on what I like/dislike and trying to validate yourself with each answer. Do guys really think that this will convince me they are my perfect match? Maybe I should have just been raw and honest and broke him down piece by piece as to why I already knew I wasn’t feeling it?
This is also SOP. I don’t do it personally, because it doesn’t work on intelligent women. Lots of guys do this, though, so it’s a good tactic to be aware of… Whatever you like? I like that too! 😀 *waves* .. Whatever traits you like in a guy?.. GOT ‘EM!!! 😀 .. Whatever you think about kids? Me too. Dogs? Me too. Yankees vs. Mets? ME TOOOOO!!! 😀 .. whatever. Business is Business.
As far as whether you should have told him you weren’t feeling the date, I guess that depends on how much of a philanthropist you are. 😀 I don’t date, personally, but if I did, I’d bite the bullet if a date was wack and I would strive to last whatever amount of time I had agreed to spend with her.
Having said that, I’m the aggressOR, not the aggressEE, so if I’m on a bad date, that just means I don’t feel like hooking up with the chick, so I’m sitting there bored, wasting my time (except for the tasty alcoholic beverages I’m consuming). It’s not like the chick is pressing up on me or invading my space. It’s like being at a boring job, waiting for the clock to tick to 5pm so I can escape and go live my real life, so whether you should cut a date short or not depends on your level of discomfort and whether you feel this date could possibly get better if you wait it out, or that it’s only going to get worse.
Who Are You Telling, Exactly?
TheDiva: Strike three: As if the foot on my chair isn’t enough invasion… please don’t rest your knee against me. We just met! There is no reason what so ever that any of your body should be touching mine. So back off and recognize that I am inching away every time you try this move. Not to mention I have totally turned my body away from you at this point.
Redundant issues at this point. The leg-touching-leg is SOP in bar-stool tactics. Next comes her legs sandwiched by my legs, or either my left or right leg between hers, then hands on thighs, then standing in front of her, then around behind her to massage her back.. *yawn*
The other redundant issue is that y’all need to stop talking to yourselves or to Mr. Magoo or to The Great Gazoo or whomever you’re telling all this “He should do this and he should act like that and this isn’t appropriate because” and OPEN. YOUR. *******. MOUTHS. and say something verbally, out loud, directly to the guy, so that he can hear it, when he’s encroaching on your personal space or doing anything else at all that you don’t like.
All this waiting for him to realize the error of his ways is going to do absolutely NOTHING for you. He’s not malfunctioning. 😀 He’s doing what he CAME THERE TO DO, which is GET HIS HANDS ON A CHICK THAT HE’S ATTRACTED TO. That is the POINT of a DATE! 😀 If he didn’t want to get his hands on YOU…. wait for it……… He’d be on a date with A DIFFERENT CHICK!
This is what I mean when I say you have to pay attention to HIS goals for the evening. Nobody cares about your personal space. Nobody cares about “We just met”. Nobody cares about “I put my leg on her seat and she didn’t verbally suggest that I remove it”. Nobody cares about “I put my knee against her leg and she didn’t verbally tell me she didn’t want me to touch her”. Nobody cares about “She turned her body away from me”. All he knows is that he’s trying to get laid and you haven’t left yet, so he’s still in the game.
TheDiva: Last and final strikes: Under no circumstance what so ever is it appropriate to grab a woman’s hand and hold on to it. This happened TWICE! The first time was early on and he wanted to see my wrist tattoo… ask me and I will be happy to give you a good view of it, but grabbing my hand and holding it is a major DON’T.
The second time he grabbed both my hands to look at my nails and just held on to them! WHAT THE HELL!? This was so inappropriate. I said “can I have my hand back??” and pulled away.
Yeah.. This is REALLY BAD technique. 😀 There’s no way that was going to work in this circumstance. That’s not SOP. I don’t even know WHAT that is! It’s just dumb! 😀
I’m glad she actually SAID something this time, but “Can I have…” isn’t the same as saying “Don’t touch me”, just like “I have a boyfriend” isn’t the same as saying “I’m not going to kiss you”.
I know that Dr. Phil and body language experts and other people tell women that if you act a certain way, guys will get the hint. I’m telling you that the *ONLY* way to go is directly stating exactly what you want and don’t want him to do to or for you. Even if a guy gets the non-verbal hint “She’s turned her body away from me, which indicates displeasure with me”, he might not give a flying ****. Did you consider that? What if he knew putting his foot on your chair made you uncomfortable and he kept going? What if he knew putting his leg against yours made you uncomfortable and he kept going? What if he knew that the first time he grabbed your hands it made you uncomfortable and he kept going? o_O
Where was this supposed to stop?….. That’s why you need to inform guys what your personal boundaries are with them. If you don’t draw any lines, guys are going to keep stepping over the imaginary lines that you think are clearly drawn for anyone with common sense and good manners. I’ll bet if this guy were asked, he’d have a totally different perspective of what happened that night. Up until this point right here, she hasn’t given him one clear indication that he’s in violation of her personal rules for guys that would like to date her.
If she would have verbally vetoed the foot on the chair, or verbally vetoed his leg on her leg, either a) it would never have gotten to the hand-grabbing stage, or b) when that happened, it would have been clear to her that this guy intends to do whatever he wants, regardless of what she thinks or says, which would most likely have been the evidence she needs to excuse herself (or not, haha) and BOUNCE.
TheDiva: I wonder what the other people at the bar thought of us. I wonder how obvious it was that I was totally not feeling this guy. I wish someone had stepped in to save me.
This, in fact, is a VERY DANGEROUS mindset. Seriously.
There’s this myth that just because you’re around other people, they’re a) going to perceive that you need help, and b) step in to “save you”, potentially endangering themselves in the process.
For the most part, that’s not going to happen.
Second, there’s no indication of what relationship they have to each other.
Even if someone saw her pull her hand away and say “Can I have my hand back?”, nobody knows if they’re in a LTR together and that’s how they relate to each other.
Nobody knows what either of them said to each other.
It’s apparent that she can just move her chair and walk away if she feels like it.
She’s not screaming at him OR yelling for anyone to come help her get away from this guy… Most people, under these circumstances, are going to mind their own ******* business.
In fact.. On any given evening in Manhattan, NYC, you can spot guys or gals sprawled out drunk in the street, or resting comfortably on top of a pile of garbage… You know damned well that you weren’t the first person to walk down that street. When you get there, there might even be several people milling about, socializing, only a few feet away from the sleeper.
My point being that if people can walk right by, around, or, in some cases, step over someone that’s obviously physically incapacitated, what makes women think that people are going to “save them” from what appears to be a perfectly normal dating situation? o_O
If you don’t believe what I’m saying to you, watch it in action in these videos:
YouTube link to part 01 of the video => [link]
YouTube link to part 02 of the video => [link]
According to Professor Carrie Keating in the first video, “We’re so sensitive to embarrassment, to stepping out of line, to one another’s privacy, that sometimes we don’t step up when real action is called for.”
I’m Leaving My Wife (But Haven’t Yet)
TheDiva: So, in conclusion – the beer was excellent but the company was far too intrusive. Not to mention our conversation consisted of what I like/dislike, his soon to be Ex Wife who still lives with him, and Cats. *yawn*
Maybe it’s just me? Are there any women out there who like this sort of behaviour?
For the record, hahaha “I’m going to leave my wife” is SOP too. 😀 Variations include “We’re still together, but filed for separation”, “We’re separated, but filed for divorce”, “We’re divorced and we share a house as roommates”, “We’re divorced and sharing a house until our lease is up, when I’ll move to a new apartment on my own”, “We’re divorced, but still live together for the sake of the kids”, “We’re divorced, but can’t afford to live anywhere else right now”…….
Anyway.. I wanted to talk about this situation because it’s typical. It’s not an anomaly. TheDiva didn’t do anything out of the ordinary. Guys press up on gals every single day and try to get laid. That’s how most people were born. It’s a biological imperative.
If a guy wants to kick it to you, it’s on *YOU* to let him know what the boundaries are as far as behavior that you’re willing to accept from him. You have to speak. up. and tell him what you do and don’t want him to do. You could elect to be polite about it if they seem to be honest mistakes or just him not understanding that he’s violating. Other than that, you have to put your foot down and let him know directly that he’s out of pocket, and if it persists, you’re leaving.
Unfortunately.. The Game never changed and it never will. People want to tell you that guys are going to act like gentlemen, keep their hands off of you and not try to hook up with you on the first date because… um… because…….. because it’s 2010? 😀 HAHAHA Don’t you think people said the same thing back in the day, like “He wouldn’t dare do XYZ.. It’s 1950!!! :O”
Do you think people went plum loco buck wild crazy and turned into sex freaks in the 1960’s and then just happened to change their minds at some point? If so, what year did the changeover occur? 😀
It DIDN’T OCCUR is the answer, so, regardless of what y’all think is improper or unacceptable or inappropriate, recognize that it takes two people to go on a date. If his goals for the evening aren’t the same as yours and he ends up being unintentionally or intentionally disrespectful, it’s going to be ON *YOU* to let him know what time it is, shut him down if necessary, and if that doesn’t seem to be working, get your ass up off that bar stool and SKATE! >:D
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